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right of way - legal standing.

C

campanula

diminished responsibilty
I have 6 acres of land (wood) in Norfolk. I don't like the owner of a neighbouring plot who monetises his (crappy) space by doing something he refers to as 'corporate adventure' - a sort of outward bound for twats. Last week, there were a dozen men, bellowing at each other in some quasi-military exercise (we turned the music up). Anyway, the thing which blows his gasket most of all is leaving the gate open (a bloody great field gate with 'Private Land' notices all over it...or, in fact, anyone using the track to loop back to the village, avoiding the road. Used to be a very popular route with dogwalkers because there is no pavement along the road so walkers have to climb up onto the high banks...or walk in the road. The closing of what was previously a pleasant circular route, has caused some bitterness in the village.

Half a dozen land-owners (eek) share a right of way along a track which borders our plots and runs to the river...but the river bank has been bounded with barbed wire (another plot-owner) and a drainage ditch, so remains an overgrown , uninviting nettle patch. However, if I allow people to walk through my wood (which is on the opposite side of the communal track), it becomes a really nice dogwalk around the wood and emerging on a farm track which leads back to the village. Altogether more satisfying. Making it known to villagers (giving them the combination to the gate-lock and personal permission to use the right of way) has the additional happy effect of pissing off my neighbour...but I am now being threatened with legal action to cease allowing people to use the private road.

I don't really hold with land-ownership tbh...we see ourselves more as stewards of the environment and I bloody love sharing the wood. Opening the wood isn't just pure altruism, but a tactical arrangement which also benefits us. We were robbed in our first year . The thieves obviously felt quite safe because they used our tools to dismantle our woodburning stove and go through the entire horsebox, at their leisure, taking anything of value. Inviting locals to use the track and wood is an extra layer of security (we hope) so we all feel some additional benefits from sharing. However, my neighbour is now trying to say I cannot allow anyone to use the right of way unless I am there to 'oversee' the usage, because they obviously allow all sorts of 'corporate adventurers' along the same track...but only when they are doing some programme (suspect there is more than a smigeon of 'Iron John' masculinity tripe going on)

I have no idea about legal rights and obligations and no money to pay a solicitor. How does 'Right of Way' work (legally) and can I be stopped from sharing the common track?
 
Your conveyancing solicitor you used when purchasing should have explained the existing status of the track and your rights and obligations in relation to it. Presumably it’s a track across someone else’s land that you have the right to use only for the purpose of accessing your land, and not for example to hold raves on or organise rambling events along or indeed, invite villagers to use for getting from A to B.

It really depends though, do you have any paperwork about the purchase?
 
campanula said:
I have 6 acres of land (wood) in Norfolk. I don't like the owner of a neighbouring plot who monetises his (crappy) space by doing something he refers to as 'corporate adventure' - a sort of outward bound for twats. Last week, there were a dozen men, bellowing at each other in some quasi-military exercise (we turned the music up). Anyway, the thing which blows his gasket most of all is leaving the gate open (a bloody great field gate with 'Private Land' notices all over it...or, in fact, anyone using the track to loop back to the village, avoiding the road. Used to be a very popular route with dogwalkers because there is no pavement along the road so walkers have to climb up onto the high banks...or walk in the road. The closing of what was previously a pleasant circular route, has caused some bitterness in the village.

Half a dozen land-owners (eek) share a right of way along a track which borders our plots and runs to the river...but the river bank has been bounded with barbed wire (another plot-owner) and a drainage ditch, so remains an overgrown , uninviting nettle patch. However, if I allow people to walk through my wood (which is on the opposite side of the communal track), it becomes a really nice dogwalk around the wood and emerging on a farm track which leads back to the village. Altogether more satisfying. Making it known to villagers (giving them the combination to the gate-lock and personal permission to use the right of way) has the additional happy effect of pissing off my neighbour...but I am now being threatened with legal action to cease allowing people to use the private road.

I don't really hold with land-ownership tbh...we see ourselves more as stewards of the environment and I bloody love sharing the wood. Opening the wood isn't just pure altruism, but a tactical arrangement which also benefits us. We were robbed in our first year . The thieves obviously felt quite safe because they used our tools to dismantle our woodburning stove and go through the entire horsebox, at their leisure, taking anything of value. Inviting locals to use the track and wood is an extra layer of security (we hope) so we all feel some additional benefits from sharing. However, my neighbour is now trying to say I cannot allow anyone to use the right of way unless I am there to 'oversee' the usage, because they obviously allow all sorts of 'corporate adventurers' along the same track...but only when they are doing some programme (suspect there is more than a smigeon of 'Iron John' masculinity tripe going on)

I have no idea about legal rights and obligations and no money to pay a solicitor. How does 'Right of Way' work (legally) and can I be stopped from sharing the common track?
Click to expand...
Not sure of the legal position, but if he's not notified you of the corporate adventurers using the track he can hardly complain about villagers using it without notification. His letter to you suggests that you can in your defence demand that he cease allowing his people to use the private road?

Worth talking to the villagers? There might be a solicitor amongst them, and people willing to take on legal costs because it's to their benefit? I think a judge might look favourably on your side of it all.
 
Possibly worth writing a letter to man of corporate adventurers or his solicitors that you'll be happy to grant him permission for his adventurers to use the path if he lets the villagers use it (although you can't talk for the other landowners). And might also be worth talking to the other landowners.

Athos and Diamond (who I see's back on here, hello Diamond) will likely know more about this.
 
campanula said:
I have 6 acres of land (wood) in Norfolk. I don't like the owner of a neighbouring plot who monetises his (crappy) space by doing something he refers to as 'corporate adventure' - a sort of outward bound for twats. Last week, there were a dozen men, bellowing at each other in some quasi-military exercise (we turned the music up). Anyway, the thing which blows his gasket most of all is leaving the gate open (a bloody great field gate with 'Private Land' notices all over it...or, in fact, anyone using the track to loop back to the village, avoiding the road. Used to be a very popular route with dogwalkers because there is no pavement along the road so walkers have to climb up onto the high banks...or walk in the road. The closing of what was previously a pleasant circular route, has caused some bitterness in the village.

Half a dozen land-owners (eek) share a right of way along a track which borders our plots and runs to the river...but the river bank has been bounded with barbed wire (another plot-owner) and a drainage ditch, so remains an overgrown , uninviting nettle patch. However, if I allow people to walk through my wood (which is on the opposite side of the communal track), it becomes a really nice dogwalk around the wood and emerging on a farm track which leads back to the village. Altogether more satisfying. Making it known to villagers (giving them the combination to the gate-lock and personal permission to use the right of way) has the additional happy effect of pissing off my neighbour...but I am now being threatened with legal action to cease allowing people to use the private road.

I don't really hold with land-ownership tbh...we see ourselves more as stewards of the environment and I bloody love sharing the wood. Opening the wood isn't just pure altruism, but a tactical arrangement which also benefits us. We were robbed in our first year . The thieves obviously felt quite safe because they used our tools to dismantle our woodburning stove and go through the entire horsebox, at their leisure, taking anything of value. Inviting locals to use the track and wood is an extra layer of security (we hope) so we all feel some additional benefits from sharing. However, my neighbour is now trying to say I cannot allow anyone to use the right of way unless I am there to 'oversee' the usage, because they obviously allow all sorts of 'corporate adventurers' along the same track...but only when they are doing some programme (suspect there is more than a smigeon of 'Iron John' masculinity tripe going on)

I have no idea about legal rights and obligations and no money to pay a solicitor. How does 'Right of Way' work (legally) and can I be stopped from sharing the common track?
Click to expand...
He is a twat. Pm me his name and address. Keep him busy?
 
If it is his track but he must let you have right of way then that extends to your guests too. Regardless of any of it, tell the prick that the villagers are upset at the noise his activities generate and are preparing a formal complaint to the council about his commercial activities with a view to closing them down. Of course a lack of noise from him re the track would put a stop to it all.
 
I really wouldn't do anything or write to anyone until you've worked out exactly where you stand tbh.

If you start issuing ultimatums or threats before checking on the legal status of the track and your access rights you could end up being on the receiving end of something from one or more of the other land owners with no way back.
 
I would absolutely, definitely get your legal situation squared away first. Rights of way are an absolute nightmare, and if there's anything wrong with your deeds - badly worded, poorly defined, or simply made up based on heresay - and the other landowner gets a bit sweaty with you, you could find yourself in a world of pain.

I know of four canoeing businesses who have bought business premises on the basis of their landing rights on land adjacent to the River Wye. The new owner of the land those landing rights are on has started to query the legalities and they've be advised to not use them until the case is sorted - they are no having to use a different landing sight 3 miles away with crap access and no parking: they are having to use minibuses to ferry everything about in addition to the covid stuff and they think they may be out of business before the case gets sorted....

Dig the deeds out and speak to a solicitor.
 
I agree with Athos that you want to get a copy of your title and ideally the plan as well. It sounds like you might have a right of way over your neighbour's land but that's not clear.

If you do, much will turn on the wording. Rights of way generally take the form of easements and will be quite specific/limited as it is a fairly invasive right re: the other person's enjoyment of their property.

To play devil's advocate - I'm afraid that the detail of the thieves is probably unhelpful re: the argument that more people should be allowed to walk through your wood than less. The fact that theft has occurred would seem to argue quite strongly for limiting rather than widening access.
 
Most of the plot of land was owned and broken up into smaller bits by Woodland.Co apart from our bit, which we bought at auction...so I think the track might be owned by Woodlands. We have always had RoW along with 4 other plot holders so, at least between ourselves and our neighbours, there is no hierarchy of ownership. I would definitely say that they (the corporate adventurers) have a lot more people using the track than we do but my neighbour seems to think it is something about accepting responsibility for visitors (because they have public liability insurance).
My instincts are always to keep my head down, especially where authority is concerned. There is a shoot every Sunday, next to us but apart from nagging Bill about using lead shot, we get on OK with them. The pub across the river have dire karaoke sessions and there is a wedding venue across the marsh, but in general, I prefer to get along (and we do have our annual party). It is I just the private land shit which makes me feel a bit militantt . The other current plotholders don't mind because no-one is actually going on their land, just using the track, (although a previous plotholder was a bit ranty and walked about with a machete...naked, and another one installed the barbed wire , cutting off the riverside path (also a bit cuntish) but both of them have sold up and gone. Anyway, a handful of dogwalkers and a few photographer/naturalist types go through our wood because its a neighbourly thing to do. It isn't really very village-y (no pub for a start apart from a volunteer bar (once a week!)...and no shop...but anyway, I might try to find out a bit more about the history of land ownership (a field next to me is owned by the bishopric of Ely) and most of the rest is owned by the farmer. A few of the locals had always used the track and cut through the wood to emerge on the farm track (as the farmer is also pretty relaxed about public access.
I definitely have the local farmer on my side...but that's a mixed blessing because he is a fucking loon (and a cantankerous old cunt).
 
We had to bung a solicitor well over a grand to check out the deeds and stuff, particularly because of RoW. While we have a guaranteed RoW, I am not clear how it stands with locals. I really don't see myself entering into some legal battle so I could suggest locals use Paddy's farm track and loop through the wood, avoidsing the shared track. altogether (but it just feels a bit shit). My neighbour is a prick but has a lovely partner so I am good with being an irritating anarcho without having a massive falling out.
 
It probably goes without saying that falling out with your neighbours at this point is by far the most expensive thing you can do. Which sucks, obviously.
 
It sounds like this is a private agreement but have you looked at public rights of way? Councils generally have a mapping tool hidden away on their website where you can see these.
 
I am definitely going to check out if there were historical rights of way. The land used to belong to the Earl of Roseberry until the 80s when people who used the marsh for summer grazing, were given the right to buy the land at a very reduced cost...which is how Paddy was able to acquire land on the south side of the A47. He told me he had planned to buy our wood and clear fell it...which he could do because it is classed as plantation rather than woodland. Glad he didn't. He also loathes my neighbour after finding crossbow bolts and arrows in his field. He thinks someone connected to the corporate adventurers was shooting at his cows!

We don't even need to use the RoW because we can access the wood from the western side, using the farm track so I think we are in a pretty good position if it all goes to shit...and mostly, I just want to avoid solicitors, legal letters and other stressful shit...but it is a shitty, selfish thing to do, whining about the locals. I am thinking that the sort of people who want to walk a dog in the wood are basically alright (but I used to think the same about stoners so...my judgement might be unreliable)...however, we have not been robbed since we did invite visitors (9 years).
In better news, we are collaborating on a wildflower meadow along the whole western side of the wood (and the boundary between us and the farmer which is awesome. I have an experimental 'meadow' on my allotment, but only 30 square metres.
 
If you PM me where it is, I will have a look for you if you like, in a non-definitive not-a-lawyer kind of way.
 
campanula said:
I am definitely going to check out if there were historical rights of way.
Click to expand...
there's official public rights of way, but there's other rights of way which weren't recorded properly in the 50s when they recorded them all - I believe they need to be properly recorded quite soon before some change in the law - the ramblers have a project trying get people to do this (with instructions how to) - Don't Lose Your Way
 
You get Land Registry docs immediately (automatically), I think. Be aware that you need to store them somewhere because the download link silently expires after some period of time.
 
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