Rebuilding of Blackfriars Thameslink station...end in sight?

[hipipol]

Those using the Catford Loop will return to being even shiter than they are now as soon as the terminal plats are finished!!!!

 

[Bungle73]

My info is that those services will still run through the core as they do now.

 

[se5]

I know, but I don't think it'll be that bad really - the trains through the central bit will be so frequent, every 2 or 3 minutes at peak time, that you'll not have to wait long to change trains at Blackfriars.

And the trains on the Sutton Loop will hopefully be less prone to delays and cancellations caused by things happening on the main Thameslink route.

Do you know what will be happening to the Southern trains from places like Denmark Hill - will they go back to starting/finishing at Blackfriars or will they continue to run through?

 

[Bungle73]

Do you know what will be happening to the Southern trains from places like Denmark Hill - will they go back to starting/finishing at Blackfriars or will they continue to run through?

There aren't any Southern services that run through Blackfriars.

 

[se5]

There aren't any Southern services that run through Blackfriars.

Good point - sorry got confused - they are Southeastern trains originating in places like Sevenoaks and Dartford, they currently run from Denmark Hill to St Pancras after previously terminating at Blackfriars

 

[Crispy]

Good point - sorry got confused - they are Southeastern trains originating in places like Sevenoaks and Dartford, they currently run from Denmark Hill to St Pancras after previously terminating at Blackfriars

Sevenoaks services will go through the tunnel, because they approach Blackfriars on the Eastern tracks - formerly the terminating ones, but now the through ones.

 

[teuchter]

There aren't any Southern services that run through Blackfriars.

Although, in a couple of years, the Southern and Thameslink franchises will be merged into one. I think also eating up the southeastern services that currently run through Blackfriars.

 

[davesgcr]

Options for the Sutton loop will no doubt continue to be debated for a while yet .....

 

[MAD-T-REX]

So, it seems confirmed that the full service on the Wimbledon/Sutton loop will resume from the 19th May (or very soon after).

I'm looking forward to having late night/weekend services back.

Can anyone remember how late the service used to run in the evenings? I can't find any information on this.

Open Train Times has the new timetable. The last southbound loop trains on Mon-Fri and Sat call at Blackfriars at 23:46. The Sun service isn't as good - Blackfriars at 21:14.

You can browse the full listings for Herne Hill here (use the URL to change the station code, time and date). I'd recommend looking from 28 May onwards as the proper Sunday loop service isn't starting until 27 May for some reason.

Options for the Sutton loop will no doubt continue to be debated for a while yet .....

It's hard to know what will happen with the loop after 2018. The physical route will obviously be within the FCC/Southern mega franchise, but whether the loop continues to exist as part of the Thameslink service (and get the new trains) or at all is another question. It's a relatively recent invention and faster services to central London are available from several of the stations on the route; the loss of service through the City may make it a bit pointless.

An RUS (can't find the exact one at the minute) recommends making the loop start at Blackfriars and end at London Bridge. This will be a bit rubbish for E&C, Loughborough J and Herne Hill passengers as the trains towards London Bridge will travel east from Tulse Hill, reducing the number of northbound trains per hour at their stations. But this plan is tentative - it all depends on how much capacity, if any, London Bridge has after its redevelopment.

Longer term, my understanding is that Network Rail wants to reconsider how South London metro services are provided after the new Thameslink service has had a chance to settle in. London Overground could end up running the services (such as the loop) that are contained entirely inside London.

 

[Crispy]

London Overground could end up running the services (such as the loop) that are contained entirely inside London.

Sounds nice. But I get the feeling that expansion of the Overground brand like this isn't really going to provide a proper metro service while the routes remain shared with other services. South London's rail network does dual duty as metro and long-distance routes, which hampers both. Segregation of routes is damn near impossible too

 

[MAD-T-REX]

Aye, it'd be a change in name only. The loop is a mess of junctions and outdated signalling that can't take any more trains.

Network Rail is planning a total segregation of the lines at Herne Hill by using a fly-over (the land north of the station has been safeguarded, although it won't be done before 2020), but that's mainly for the benefit of longer-distance trains to/from Victoria that pass through Herne Hill without stopping. There is no real interest in increasing capacity on the purely suburban routes.

 

[teuchter]

An RUS (can't find the exact one at the minute) recommends making the loop start at Blackfriars and end at London Bridge. This will be a bit rubbish for E&C, Loughborough J and Herne Hill passengers as the trains towards London Bridge will travel east from Tulse Hill, reducing the number of northbound trains per hour at their stations. But this plan is tentative - it all depends on how much capacity, if any, London Bridge has after its redevelopment.

Yes, I've seen this as well and it's not an option I'd be keen on, if it meant a reduced frequency of service at the stations you mention.

The loop isn't just useful as a means of getting into the city - the interchanges at E&C (and now again at Blackfriars) are a useful link to the underground, and a reduction of the number of trains calling at these places would surely disadvantage people at any point on the loop (not just HH/LJ/E&C).

I don't think there's an argument that the loop service becomes pointless as a result of no longer having direct trains through the core.

 

[Crispy]

Aye, it'd be a change in name only. The loop is a mess of junctions and outdated signalling that can't take any more trains.

Network Rail is planning a total segregation of the lines at Herne Hill by using a fly-over (the land north of the station has been safeguarded, although it won't be done before 2020), but that's mainly for the benefit of longer-distance trains to/from Victoria that pass through Herne Hill without stopping. There is no real interest in increasing capacity on the purely suburban routes.

Ah, I'd heard of this, but thought the station would continue having platforms for all services. That would have been "tricky". Of course, having a bypass flyover makes things much easier, but is less flexible.

Legions of railway enthusiasts have pored over the South London rail network, but it just can't be untangled without some serious engineering (flyovers at multiple junctions, or tunnels for the express trains)

 

[MAD-T-REX]

Ah, I'd heard of this, but thought the station would continue having platforms for all services. That would have been "tricky". Of course, having a bypass flyover makes things much easier, but is less flexible.

The exact form of the grade-separation hasn't been decided yet (or at least hasn't been published). It could be a simple flyover that costs HH services to Victoria, but I think Network Rail has bigger plans for the station. HH is on their short list of stations that will eventually need congestion easing works (which wouldn't be a problem if Victoria trains were lost), and the RUS recommending the grade-separation says the removal of the northern junction will allow for 12-car trains to serve the station. As there is no intention of ever running 12-car trains on the loop (it's apparently impossible to extend Tulse Hill), they must be thinking of the many 12-car Southeastern services that pass HH because they can't stop. The all-singing, all-dancing option is a new station with 12-car platforms at both high and low levels, which would become a major interchange (hence the need for congestion easing). It'd also stop Southeastern passengers going bananas during the planning, as HH is their only interchange with Thameslink.

 

[lang rabbie]

Irony of ironies!

Somewhere I still have the "Common Exhibits" that Railtrack submitted to the Thameslink public enquiry back in 2000 with their "purely hypothetical" maps of a Herne Hill toTulse Hill dive-under and fly-over option to demonstrate why it wasn't technically feasible to route all the Thameslink trains by that route.

 

[teuchter]

Restoration of full service through the core from this Saturday onwards!

And then the following Saturday, the weekend/evening exile on the Wimbledon loop finally ends. Good news for the burghers of Loughborough Junction, Herne Hill and Tulse Hill.

Details

New timetable

 

[Crispy]

Hurrah!

Now, let's see, does this affect my commute when I'm not on my bike...

ETA: Nope.

 

[MAD-T-REX]

The new timetable is good, although I have one complaint: the overnight trains between Bedford and Three Bridges, which serve the airports, look as though they will be routed via Herne Hill (they go St Pancras -> Blackfriars -> East Croydon; London Bridge is presumably closed overnight for rebuilding work) but don't call at HH.

I avoid missing the last train from Camden, Angel, etc, because taking multiple night buses is a pain in the ass. A direct overnight train from St. P to HH would be dead handy, but I imagine FCC don't want the trains to be used to shuttle drunks between north and south London or deal with the complaints they would get when the trains were diverted back to London Bridge in 2018.

Edit: Also, on the wider topic of Thameslink south of the river, I have heard from someone working in the industry that the grade separation of Herne Hill isn't on any internal timescales this side of 2030. This is backed up by the 2011 RUS totally ignoring grade separation and instead talking about using higher capacity trains (like the London Overground's) and using the slots freed up by the peak Brighton trains going via London Bridge instead of HH from 2018 for more local services. A proper metro service on the poor old loop is decades away yet, which is a real shame as the current level of service doesn't have anywhere near the capacity to allow for the reopening of Camberwell or Walworth Road.

 

[ringo]

Great news, and only took 4 years!

 

[teuchter]

The new timetable is good, although I have one complaint: the overnight trains between Bedford and Three Bridges, which serve the airports, look as though they will be routed via Herne Hill (they go St Pancras -> Blackfriars -> East Croydon; London Bridge is presumably closed overnight for rebuilding work) but don't call at HH.

I avoid missing the last train from Camden, Angel, etc, because taking multiple night buses is a pain in the ass. A direct overnight train from St. P to HH would be dead handy, but I imagine FCC don't want the trains to be used to shuttle drunks between north and south London or deal with the complaints they would get when the trains were diverted back to London Bridge in 2018.

It would be great. Even better if it stopped at LJ too.

I can see why they wouldn't want to shuttle drunks, but if LU have to do it then doesn't seem unreasonable to ask FCC to do it for an area badly served by the underground. Even if it was only until 12.30/1am rather than all night.

 

[MAD-T-REX]

I might be a right saddo and write in to FCC. HH station is already manned 24/7 and it's reasonably well served by night buses to all of the neighbouring areas, so dealing with the passengers wouldn't be a great hardship for them or TfL.

Your suggestion about not necessarily running all night is a good one. All of HH's pubs are closed by 2am (except the clubs on the Norwood Road) and the area turns quiet very quickly; aside from drunks coming off trains disturbing residents, it probably wouldn't be safe to have passengers arriving at a deserted train station and trying to find the right night bus on empty streets at 4am (not that HH is dangerous, but train companies are paranoid about that sort of thing). I think I'll suggest that the 01:05 and 02:05 from Blackfriars stop at HH from Thurs to Sat, when they are likely to be heavily used.

 

[teuchter]

I might be a right saddo and write in to FCC. HH station is already manned 24/7 and it's reasonably well served by night buses to all of the neighbouring areas, so dealing with the passengers wouldn't be a great hardship for them or TfL.

Your suggestion about not necessarily running all night is a good one. All of HH's pubs are closed by 2am (except the clubs on the Norwood Road) and the area turns quiet very quickly; aside from drunks coming off trains disturbing residents, it probably wouldn't be safe to have passengers arriving at a deserted train station and trying to find the right night bus on empty streets at 4am (not that HH is dangerous, but train companies are paranoid about that sort of thing). I think I'll suggest that the 01:05 and 02:05 from Blackfriars stop at HH from Thurs to Sat, when they are likely to be heavily used.

I'd be happy to do the same! Let me know if I can be of help. I can write a letter too, at the least.

 

[MAD-T-REX]

I fired this off to customer.relations.fcc@firstgroup.com. I kept the tone informal since I'm asking them to do me a favour and not intending to mount any sort of campaign:

I have a suggested service change that I believe would be very useful to your customers in south London and cause minimal inconvenience to yourselves. Could you please forward this email to the appropriate department?

I see in the timetable for May-December 2012 (http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/static/timetables/timetable/FC1205_TL_BOOK.pdf) that the last service to Herne Hill from central London from Mon-Sat will be the 23:46 from Blackfriars (p.108). The later overnight services from Bedford to Three Bridges will apparently run via Herne Hill (calling at St. Pancras, Blackfriars and then East Croydon) but will not stop there (p.86).

I believe that some consideration should be given to the earlier overnight services (the 01:05 and 02:05 from Blackfriars and the 01:47 from East Croydon) calling at Herne Hill instead of just passing through. The station is already manned 24 hours and served by night buses to Brixton, Denmark Hill, Camberwell and Dulwich. There are also local public houses open until 2am, so the nearby streets and bus stops would be populated and not an unsafe environment for passengers.

This would be an invaluable service for the residents of all of the areas around Herne Hill (as it would provide much faster cross-London travel than multiple night buses) on the evenings when people are likely to be out late; I would suggest that the services need call at Herne Hill only on Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

I appreciate that there may be other complications with using a service presumably intended to serve the airports as a late-night train for inebriated Londoners and that the service would only last until the completion of London Bridge's redevelopment, but I think it is worth consideration as it would allow late-night travellers easier access to north and south London for several years.

Best regards,

 

[5t3IIa]

I'll just mention that Blackfriars tube (District and Circle lines) smells of bacon every morning.

 

[London_Calling]

I know this cost around £1 billion, but Farringdon's the one I'm looking forward to - what a job that is!

 

[Crispy]

There's not much more work to do at Farringdon. Spit and polish around the edges, a lick of paint on the old bit of the station. The heavy lifting is all done. Of course the Crossrail station will be under construction around and beneath the Thameslink one, but that won't be noticeable from inside the station until they take the hoarding down.

 

[London_Calling]

But what a project for one of the oldest stations - Thameslink meets Crossrail meets tube. Huge new entrances/exits...

 

[teuchter]

Very impressive from an engineering point of view but I find the new bit at Farringdon a little bland. It all feels like a bit like the lobby of some kind of corporate offices.

 

[teuchter]

Also, the roof at Blackfriars is rather clunky, which is a shame considering what it could have been like with some more accomplished detailing.

 

[Crispy]

Also, the roof at Blackfriars is rather clunky, which is a shame considering what it could have been like with some more accomplished detailing.

Very much agree. If that roof shape had been given 6 months in Rogers or Grimshaws office to design all the steel, it would be superb.