Rail now easily beating air on London<>Edinburgh journeys

[teuchter]

For the past 20 years or whatever on urban it's been customary to have - at regular intervals - an argument about whether it makes any sense to fly from London to Edinburgh when going by train is objectively better. There have been a lot of denialists over the years but the matter is now settled: people have now seen sense and rail has over 50% of the traffic.

It's another one of those things where I am proved right eventually.

 

[platinumsage]

Surely Lumo can't have improved things, because they're not state-owned.

 

[8ball]

For the past 20 years or whatever on urban it's been customary to have - at regular intervals - an argument about whether it makes any sense to fly from London to Edinburgh when going by train is objectively better. There have been a lot of denialists over the years but the matter is now settled: people have now seen sense and rail has over 50% of the traffic.

It's another one of those things where I am proved right eventually.

Are they the EasyTrain entrant to the market?
Do you get booted if they overbook?

 

[danny la rouge]

I’d much rather travel by train than plane. I’m less sold on the need to go to Edinburgh. Far less to then travel to London once I get there.

 

[co-op]

Just scanning a few dates a month or two ahead and they're a bit cheaper (high £40s vs £60s+ on LNER but I'm not seeing these amazing bargain prices - how do you bag the super cheapos?

 

[danny la rouge]

Glasgow to London around £52 at the moment.

Glasgow to Pisa £75.

I’d pick Pisa, tbh. If I was in the market, which I’m not.

 

[teuchter]

Just scanning a few dates a month or two ahead and they're a bit cheaper (high £40s vs £60s+ on LNER but I'm not seeing these amazing bargain prices - how do you bag the super cheapos?

I think the £15 fares he mentions were a special thing and not normally available. Looks like the best you can do at present is about £40.

 

[8ball]

Glasgow to London around £52 at the moment.

Glasgow to Pisa £75.

I’d pick Pisa, tbh. If I was in the market, which I’m not.

I'll take the London to Pisa for £23.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Should just ban flights between cities that are doable by rail.

 

[8ball]

Should just ban flights between cities that are doable by rail.

And by a combination of rail, boat and bicycle.

 

[Riklet]

And how much is a return on the train?

Until the train is half the price of flying, more people will keep choosing the plane.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'll take the London to Pisa for £23.

Yeah, but you’d have the start in London. My option skips London. (((8ball)))

 

[teuchter]

more people will keep choosing the plane.

Looks like you've not read the first post of this thread.

 

[danny la rouge]

And how much is a return on the train?

Until the train is half the price of flying, more people will keep choosing the plane.

Between Edinburgh and London? Nope. The airports are miles away from the city centres and you’d need trains either end and ages to book in and all that shit.

 

[teuchter]

Should just ban flights between cities that are doable by rail.

Yup France have pretty much done this.
Urban75 posters who argue against it happening here are more right-wing than Macron.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Yup France have pretty much done this.
Urban75 posters who argue against it happening here are more right-wing than Macron.

Any posters who argue against it and want to travel between London and Edinburgh should be forced to make the journey round the coast by pedalo

 

[teuchter]

Any posters who argue against it and want to travel between London and Edinburgh should be forced to make the journey round the coast by pedalo

One of those flamingo or swan shaped pedalos, because they sort of have wings, so they can pretend they are flying.

 

[8ball]

My mate sold his plane early on in the pandemic.
Would have been a fun jaunt up North.

He used to fly it to Ireland and Wales a fair bit.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

One of those flamingo or swan shaped pedalos, because they sort of have wings, so they can pretend they are flying.

Reckon our irresponsible fossil-fuel mad posters would look lovely pedaling this up the North Sea to Edinburgh

 

[davesgcr]

Their basic offer has certainly grown the market I guess (no frills operation) ,but to be fair Hull trains did much the same for their market , but "open access" operations do not pay full track access charges so they can be flexible with fares.

LNER have run a very good service of late - with usage above pre-Covid figures , despite the odd infrastastructure / trespass incident etc ,but some may be due to the shambles that is on the West Coast where London - Preston - Glasgow has been very patchy with on going train driver issues. This has almost certainly diverted some traffic from West Coast to East Coast rail.

So yes - well done !

(back in the day , LNER's predecessors GNER wiped out any air service from Newcastle to London , as did the Virgin high capacity service saw off any remaining air service Manchester to London)

 

[davesgcr]

Between Edinburgh and London? Nope. The airports are miles away from the city centres and you’d need trains either end and ages to book in and all that shit.

That certainly is a consideration , especially at the London end ......

Easyjet used to do something like 8 flights a day Luton to Edinburgh , I shamefully used them a couple of times for railway meetings up there ......nothing like that now I think. Pre 2012 anyway.

 

[maomao]

Between Edinburgh and London? Nope. The airports are miles away from the city centres and you’d need trains either end and ages to book in and all that shit.

There are flights from city airport which is fairly central (though I believe they're not the cheapest) and Edinburgh airport is quite convenient for the West of the City (I have family in Cramond and Costorphine). I still can't really imagine doing it (apparently I did in 1978 but don't remember). The train's only four and a bit hours.

We took Lumo this year. There were only three stops or something on the way and it was one of the fastest journeys to Edinburgh I've ever had.

 

[8ball]

There are flights from city airport which is fairly central (though I believe they're not the cheapest) and Edinburgh airport is quite convenient for the West of the City (I have family in Cramond and Costorphine). I still can't really imagine doing it (apparently I did in 1978 but don't remember). The train's only four and a bit hours.

We took Lumo this year. There were only three stops or something on the way and it was one of the fastest journeys to Edinburgh I've ever had.

That's pretty good. Not having to fuck about with airports is worth a certain premium by itself.

 

[Sue]

I've only flown from London to Scotland once and that was because I had to be there at a specific time and there was major engineering work on.

I much prefer taking the train and when I was going regularly to my home town, the nearest airport was 60 miles or something away with no direct public transport from there to where I was going -- and it was even further to the other viable airports with better transport links.

A Scottish friend in London does fly but that's because he's from way north -- it's still quite a way even if he flies to Inverness.

 

[neonwilderness]

(back in the day , LNER's predecessors GNER wiped out any air service from Newcastle to London , as did the Virgin high capacity service saw off any remaining air service Manchester to London)

On a good day I can get from my house to Kings Cross in about four hours, sometimes less if I get the once a day non-stop train.

It’d take me about an hour just to get to the airport on public transport.

I’ve not tried Lumo yet, but the ones I’ve seen have always been pretty busy.

 

[teuchter]

Their basic offer has certainly grown the market I guess (no frills operation) ,but to be fair Hull trains did much the same for their market , but "open access" operations do not pay full track access charges so they can be flexible with fares.

LNER have run a very good service of late - with usage above pre-Covid figures , despite the odd infrastastructure / trespass incident etc ,but some may be due to the shambles that is on the West Coast where London - Preston - Glasgow has been very patchy with on going train driver issues. This has almost certainly diverted some traffic from West Coast to East Coast rail.

So yes - well done !

(back in the day , LNER's predecessors GNER wiped out any air service from Newcastle to London , as did the Virgin high capacity service saw off any remaining air service Manchester to London)

I would be interested to know how much Lumo have really got to do with it - or whether it's actually more connected to the general shake-up that Covid caused.

Don't know enough about the aviation industry to know whether they had a post Covid period where they could not ramp up flight capacity immediately - but I can imagine that if that was the case, it might have prompted a few people who habitually fly to use the train instead - and discover it's better.

 

[teuchter]

Anyway it's interesting to look at old threads, from 15+ years ago.

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/plane-vs-train-what-is-it-worth.153770/page-2

New rail speed record ....

When someone told me a TGV had been running at 356mph today, I was about to tell them off for mixing up mph and kph - but it's true, France has just set a new speed record for trains running on conventional steel rails: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6521295.stm

www.urban75.net

There were some people back then who had cottoned on to the fact that flying simply wasn't that much faster, and also realised that climate change was real and coming, and not a joke. Visionaries, if you like. To take a random example of one of those people - me.

And some still living in a fantasy past where flying was glamorous, and climate change was a nutty theory made up by extremists. Again just to take a random example - Spymaster .

Now here we are, 40 degree summer heatwaves are the new normal, and the sensible majority of people are realising the plane is for idiots regardless of environmental worries, and voting with their feet.

I bet Spymaster secretly takes the train all the time now but can't admit it on urban75.

 

[davesgcr]

I would be interested to know how much Lumo have really got to do with it - or whether it's actually more connected to the general shake-up that Covid caused.

Don't know enough about the aviation industry to know whether they had a post Covid period where they could not ramp up flight capacity immediately - but I can imagine that if that was the case, it might have prompted a few people who habitually fly to use the train instead - and discover it's better.

Easyjet , for example , are continuing to report losses as a result of the fall out from previous restrictions etc this year , and general messing around at airports for labour issues there with lack of staff etc - trivial note , we were delayed about 40 mins on the only trip done overseas a few weeks ago to Porto from Luton as there were not enough baggage handlers to load up the departure. No big deal , but a lot of people are still a bit spooked with the airport experience.

Another thing is the cash return from internal flights - clearly a bit lower than higher revenue earning from overseas , even in Europe. Certainly in the days of a "frequent" service Luton to Edinburgh the crews were expected to do something like 3 return journeys a shift , indicative of the balance between costs and revenue earning potential.

I am sure Easyjet and others are very well aware of "yield" in route planning.

 

[Spymaster]

For the past 20 years or whatever on urban it's been customary to have - at regular intervals - an argument about whether it makes any sense to fly from London to Edinburgh when going by train is objectively better. There have been a lot of denialists over the years but the matter is now settled: people have now seen sense and rail has over 50% of the traffic.

It's another one of those things where I am proved right eventually.

'More people than ever travelling incorrectly between London and Edinburgh'.

Clearly, unseasoned travellers are going to make mistakes.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

I guess it depends on where you live but if you live in London surely it's easier to get to Kings X and within 10mins you're sitting in your seat and moving.
Both Glasgow & Edinburgh stations are right in the middle of the city. You can spend hours at airports. Admittedly both rail & air have delays but at least you can actually walk about a bit on a train.