Problem with homegrown British Muslims
- Thread starter mears
- Start date
JEZZA POSTING IN THE MIDDLE OF A BBQ/PARTEEH WITH THREE OTHER URBANITES!
for the hard of thinking, repeat after me; you cannot defeat a belief system by military and policing means alone.
whilst there are still hordes flocking to this cause, this is NOT a victory, merely an avoidance of another defeat.
this, comrades, is a representative example of the ruling caste of the worlds only superpower (and it is, still - just).
how the FUCK did people this thick ever get to rule the world?
jesus wept.mears said:
for the hard of thinking, repeat after me; you cannot defeat a belief system by military and policing means alone.
whilst there are still hordes flocking to this cause, this is NOT a victory, merely an avoidance of another defeat.
this, comrades, is a representative example of the ruling caste of the worlds only superpower (and it is, still - just).
how the FUCK did people this thick ever get to rule the world?
Ae589 said:
But this thread is about Muslims, mainly Pakistanis in England. These people arrested are not living in Iraq, Lebanon or Gaza. And I doubt any of them are Iraqi, Lebanese or Palestinian.
Many are fucking British nationals! Its obviously not their war. I wonder how many people in this group have even visited any of these countries.
Its how you deal with your political and cultural differences. Do you support a political canidate, or support killing civilians? Do you throw your energies at growing a political party or making bombs?
It really has very little to do with events in far off lands most of these idiots have never even visited
Some of them may have connections with what is going on along the pakistan/afghanistan border.
Having said that, maybe they see themselves as soldiers in a "Muslim army", just as many Americans youths decide to join the US armed forces and "serve their nation" in places which they have otherwise got no direct connection with.
Just as an American or British soldier may decide to fight (and possible die) for their nation maybe these people see themselves as fighting for their "nation", albeit a nation based on religious identity (and maybe also ethnic/tribal identity through their connections in pakistan?) rather than on a map-based one.
mears - you have to ask yourself how you own rhetoric and actions will influence these people one way or the other:
When they hear what you say and see what you do, will they want to 'join' your side (eg British and American) or at least stay out of it and get on with life as an American or British resident or citizen - or will they instead identify with a "Muslim nation" and even go further to the point where they feel the desire to fight for 'their people' against 'your people'?
It is worth reflecting that America was born out of disaffected British citizens
in a far off place begining to think of themselves as seperate and to start to define their own identity. This developed to the point where these self appointed fighters turned on their 'fellow citizens' at gun-point. They are now seen as heros rather than terrorists and traitors.
Having said that, maybe they see themselves as soldiers in a "Muslim army", just as many Americans youths decide to join the US armed forces and "serve their nation" in places which they have otherwise got no direct connection with.
Just as an American or British soldier may decide to fight (and possible die) for their nation maybe these people see themselves as fighting for their "nation", albeit a nation based on religious identity (and maybe also ethnic/tribal identity through their connections in pakistan?) rather than on a map-based one.
mears - you have to ask yourself how you own rhetoric and actions will influence these people one way or the other:
When they hear what you say and see what you do, will they want to 'join' your side (eg British and American) or at least stay out of it and get on with life as an American or British resident or citizen - or will they instead identify with a "Muslim nation" and even go further to the point where they feel the desire to fight for 'their people' against 'your people'?
It is worth reflecting that America was born out of disaffected British citizens
in a far off place begining to think of themselves as seperate and to start to define their own identity. This developed to the point where these self appointed fighters turned on their 'fellow citizens' at gun-point. They are now seen as heros rather than terrorists and traitors.
mears said:
Do you not think the republican party and the UK "Labour" party [at least the ones in office at present] support killing civilians??
The only difference is that they are mostly civilians of other countries - Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Palestine, etc. Do you think that such political parties are somehow more moral?
The way we stop civilians attacking us is to stop war-mongering and causing thousands of deaths in other countries. The leaders of both the US and UK make a big deal of their religion - what message does this send to people whose co-religionists are being slaughtered by our govts or their proxies? If our leaders actually practiced the tenets of their [professed] religion they might have more luck in establishing world peace.
When the Palestinians tried holding legal elections, the American, UK and Israeli govts refused to accept their democratic choices - what message does this send to Muslims worldwide? That political solutions are only possible if you vote against your own interest for people approved by the current 'axis of evil'??
KellyDJ said:
Comrades in what? Who are your comrades? Is that like comrade Trotsky?
Jesus wept indeed.
I believe the only ones that can cure any problems in the British Muslim community are British Muslims themselves. Some Muslim boys with street credibility stepping up to the plate and calling Al Queda and like minded groups ignorant and evil. Throw out some bit on the Koran and Allah. Maybe Intelligence agencies should start secretely investing in this sort of human capital, to help the Muslim community in Britian sort out their issues.
http://www.cnn.com/
Go to this page and watch the video on this British Muslim. What the fuck is going on?
Uk police and intelligence needs to get some young, charismatic, moderate British Muslims with the gift of gab on the payroll and teley pronto.
ZAMB said:
You know the US didn't put some strong man into power in Iraq. It took the time to formulate a representative government. And the vast majority of civilian killings in Iraq are Iraqi on Iraqi, namely Shia on Sunni.
What is that on Iran? The west is killing civilians in Iran?
This group Hezbollah and the state of Israel were just in a war. The battleground was Lebanon and the state of Israel. As Israel bombed Lebanese infrastructure, Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel. Civilians on both sides died as they are wont to do in a war. I am not sure why this is an excuse to bomb innocents in the United Kingdom or the US. The US supported Israel, but Iran supported the other side. And both sides inflicted damage on each other. A little more complicated than you present.
Oh and than there is Palestine. Israel has killed Palestinian civilians but Palestinians kill Israelis. Palestinians are treated like dirt in lebanon and Egypt. Russians level Grozy and kill more chechens than Israel kills palestinians.
But no detail please. Its all so simple. Muslim anger in Britian is over these issues and nothing else. We fix these problems and they go away. They are so simple to fix. Once they are fixed everything is swell in the Muslim community. All the economic and cultural divides melt away. Muslim unemployment in the UK drops and everyone is happy.
Shit, I never knew it was all that easy.
TeeJay said:
Well they will have to decide if they want to live in the UK under the prescribed laws or try to bring down the government or just leave the island behind.
The first option is best the last option is second best. But its not like they are going to leave the UK for a third world dump like Pakistan, even if mom and pap are from Pakitan.
I wonder what type of government Islamic fascists in the UK would like? Seems they are not to willing to work within the present system.
mears said:
Really? And what happens when this so-called 'democratic' government disagrees with the US? There have already been a number of instances of the US and UK putting pressure on the Iraqi government. What sort of democracy is that?
The war between Iraq and Iran was a proxy war - with the US supplying both chemical and conventional weapons to Saddam to wipe out the Iranians. Or is all that forgotten now that Saddam is out of power. Have you forgotten the US support for this war?
Also there seems to be a lot of proof that the US already has 'black ops' troops in Iran, in breach of international law.
This was another proxy war agreed on by the US, the UK and Israel. Funny they are talking about an exchange of prisoners NOW, when the whole thing could have been prevented by an exchange of prisoners at the start. And if you think the US and the UK aren't culpable in this war - not just in the planning and supply of weapons, but in their refusal to agree to a ceasefire at the start, then you are politically naive.
Palestinians have stones and home made rockets - Israel has fighter planes with bloody big bombs - the killing is totally disproportionate. Odious comparisons with other parts of the world are hardly the point - it is still ethnic cleansing supported by the US.
If we stopped following the US into wars in the ME, and at least took a stand against them, I think things would get better in the UK, although it will take time to win back the trust of British Muslims in our government - they've had 5 years now of discrimination and profiling. But I honestly feel that most muslims would prefer peace and to be treated with respect by elected representatives and by the public - not the current manufactured climate of suspicion and hostility.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:
"Prescribed laws"? Now I know you're thick. The word is "proscribed".
Another bigoted rant from Mr Dense.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Have you been keeping score? Furthermore, what is your rationale for mentioning this? You've shown no concern for the Chechens before, so why now? I know, you're in the process of writing a screenplay.
Have you got any sources that I can look at which say it is mainly shia on sunni?mears said:
I was under the impression that it was equally both ways - and if anything more by sunni militias. Having said that, the shia population (c.60%) is larger than the sunni arab (c.20%) and things may have changed more recently. I would interested if you have any sources that talk about this.
Seeing yourself as a "soldier" has little to do with what country you choose to live in tho'.mears said:
If someone sees themself as a 'soldier' fighting in a 'Muslim army' - or even more accurate a 'special forces' (eg covert/undercover) or guerilla fighter - then where they choose to live is irrelevant - in fact they would preseumably want to live maybe in one place while training (just like a solider will go to a military base or go somewhere tropical for jungle training) and then go and live near their target when they are 'on operation'.
Maybe they would choose to eventually go and live in a Muslim country after they have "retired", but if they are on a suicide operation there is no retirement (in this life at any rate).
Don't take any of my comments to mean I agree with Islamist ideas or think that their actions are morally justifed, by the way. However, I can't see why you have so much trouble understanding why some people choose to kill and die for ideas or ideals - seeing as soldiers (American, British or otherwise) do this all the time and have done so since the dawn of history as far as I can see.
The phrase "proscribed laws" doesn't make any sense nino.nino_savatte said:
Proscribed = banned or forbidden (eg proscribed organisations)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proscribed
Prescribed = order medicine or set down as a rule or law
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prescribed
Only "prescribed laws" makes sense in this context. Saying that "Muslims should live by the proscribed laws" would be equivalent to saying they should "live by laws which have been outlawed or cancelled".
If a law is proscibed it cease to be a law.
To prescribe a law is to set it out.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
TeeJay said:
Sure, I know that but try telling mears that. I should like to know what he means by "prescribed laws".
I understand what "proscription" is but does he? I reckon it was a Freudian slip on his part...he probably forgot to take his meds.
iROBOT
CURRENTLY RE-BOOTING
On your first point, yes! If the anti apartide movement was correct in apposing the way that balcks were being treated then why is it such a leap of faith to boycotte Saudi Ariabia (for instance) for the way it treats women, which in my book is just a form of gender apartied. Dont get me started on this topic.mears said:So since all of the Middle East is authoritarian you believe the US and the west should isolate all the countries, all the countries except for Turkey I guess. Is that what you want, a one size fits all foreign policy? Good luck getting an answer out of that
Pakistanis are blowing up innocents because of US foreign policy? Why are Africans or South Americans not blowing themselves up and innocents over US foreign policy
It doesn't pass the laugh test
On your second point....Because Africans (on the whole...more later) and South Americans dont have the billions that this man has at his disposale.....(Although both regions of the world were involved in the 7/7 bombings)
However if the South Americans and Africans are of exreme Jihadi (I refuse to use the term Muslim to discribe such people), I think they already have bombed an allie of the USA.
And least I'm not mistaken...wasnt the London bombing multi "racial"? you know that small 7th July incident...I'm sure you missed the finer points of it...let me refresh your memory.
This man was from Jamaica...south/central america if I'm not mistaken.
and as for Africa...this man was born in Somalia...(that's in Africa for you information mears)
You really havent a fucking clue have you?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Mears thinks that all Muslims are of Middle Eastern or Asian appearance. He deliberately ignores the fact that Islam is a global religion that comprises of many ethnic groups....like Xtianity.
iROBOT said:On your first point, yes! If the anti apartide movement was correct in apposing the way that balcks were being treated then why is it such a leap of faith to boycotte Saudi Ariabia (for instance) for the way it treats women, which in my book is just a form of gender apartied. Dont get me started on this topic.
On your second point....Because Africans (on the whole...more later) and South Americans dont have the billions that this man has at his disposale.....(Although both regions of the world were involved in the 7/7 bombings)
However if the South Americans and Africans are of exreme Jihadi (I refuse to use the term Muslim to discribe such people), I think they already have bombed an allie of the USA.
And least I'm not mistaken...wasnt the London bombing multi "racial"? you know that small 7th July incident...I'm sure you missed the finer points of it...let me refresh your memory.
This man was from Jamaica...south/central america if I'm not mistaken.
and as for Africa...this man was born in Somalia...(that's in Africa for you information mears)
You really havent a fucking clue have you?
So really what you are advocating is a policy similar to America's policy towards countries such as Iran and Syria, isloation.
Would the west go to the UN Security Council and attempt to put economic sanctions on all of the Middle East? Are all western corporations required to leave the Middle East? Can commercial aircraft from the Middle East land in western countries? Are visas cut off to all students and tourists from the Middle East?
This is "boycotting".
I wonder how all authoritarian countries in the Middle East will react to your policy.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
"NO arms to the Middle East"? Make that no arms full stop.
End the evil arms trade NOW!
End the evil arms trade NOW!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
iROBOT said:
This is true: the arms industry relies on governments to act on is behalf to start wars. Just look at the US, where the arms industry actively lobbies congressmen and senators and practically drives foreign policy. The US arms industry also has millions of ordinary consumers on board through its lobby group the NRA, which it uses to advance the cause of wanton killing by claiming it is one's "right" to bear firearms.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
iROBOT said:
That's a good way of putting it.
iROBOT said:
Like isolation has helped in North Korea?
Isolation will hurt the middle class in the west in the form of massive high energy prices. It will pour more people into poverty on all sides. The West has less oil and the Middle East has less avenue to sell their oil. A recipe for economic success.
Oh well, the Chinese can step in.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:
Ah bless, you try but you still can't break out of the loop. Let me help you: stop supporting tyrannical regimes around the world while claiminmg to support freedom and democracy and end your hopeless addiction to oil and the culture of death.
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