Plane crash South Korea 29/12/24

[krtek a houby]

Apologies if already posted

Experts question bird strike as cause of South Korea plane crash

Uncertainty surrounds the deadliest plane crash on South Korean soil, aviation experts said on Sunday, questioning how much impact a potential bird strike cited by authorities could have had in bringing down the Jeju Air flight. The apparent absence of landing gear, the timing of the twin-engine...

japantoday.com

179 dead, 2 survivors.

 

[tony.c]

Very sad. Whether or not the engine problem was caused by a bird strike, as seems probable, there may have been a safer landing if there hadn't been a big concrete wall at the end of the runway.
There are usually long stretches of sand or grassed earth at end of runways to slow down emergency crash landings.

 

[Petcha]

Seen so many experts positing their opinions on this in the last couple of days on the news. From inexperienced flight crew (it's the Korean version of EasyJet) who didn't know you could manually put the gear down if the hydraulics had been fucked by a bird to questioning why in that condition a better solution couldn't have been found such as a sea landing with loads of rescue boats waiting. Fuel wasn't a problem so they could have circled while it was debated.

The wall though, they all agree on that. Crazy. And very very sad.

 

[vinba]

It wasn't exactly a wall.. it was a Bern supporting the localiser antenna approximately 264 meters from the runway end. Concrete with earth heaped upon it. The plane landed very long with no flaps extended or spoilers deployed to slow it down. Apparently both the FDR and cvr have been recovered but the latter is damaged and will take some time to decode.

 

[Petcha]

It wasn't exactly a wall.. it was a Bern supporting the localiser antenna approximately 264 meters from the runway end. Concrete with earth heaped upon it. The plane landed very long with no flaps extended or spoilers deployed to slow it down. Apparently both the FDR and cvr have been recovered but the latter is damaged and will take some time to decode.

All the experts seem to be saying the pilot made an almost perfect landing considering he had no flaps or gear. And I can't see much earth over this wall. Solid concrete.

They're doing a bit of a Grenfell and removing them from all the other airports in SK. The fact that he came in from the opposite end as you can see in the picture didn't help but they should have been prepared for that possibility. There are other ways to get the antenna in other than embedding them in a concrete wall.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Have said on another thread; it's yet another Boeing 737.

Let's see what happens here, if it is yet another fault with the manufacturer, that is very sodding serious for one of the US's biggest manufacturers.

 

[vinba]

It's a 737-800 I think so nothing like the issues the max had. There are a lot of unanswered questions that hopefully will be cleared up once the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder are d coded. Apparently there is also another similar structure at the opposite end of the runway. Sadly only 2 people survived so hopefully there will be testimony from them as well. There's also a fair amount of phone camera footage so that may give some clues to what happened . Korean airlines did have a reputation a while ago about cockpit resource management but they got delta airlines in to try and sort that out.

And you're right.. it's concrete plinth supporting the antennae on top of an earthen mound. A completely unforgiving structure

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It's a 737-800 I think so nothing like the issues the max had.

The Alaska Airlines incident over Washington state wasn't a Max-8 either.

 

[vinba]

According to the icao the minimum runway end safety area is 90 metres and the recommended is 240 which was the case here. Someone in their infinite wisdom decided to put a very hard object on the edge of it. I'm sure they'll say that they complied with all the international safety recommendations.. on paper at least

 

[Elpenor]

Seems to be a combination of things, and each thing having a knock on effect beginning with the bad weather

1) various problems with plane systems that mean not able to lower landing gear for whatever reason so having to belly land (which seemed to be done competently enough)

2) Landing too far down the runway (around 1/3 of the way down) than was safe

3) Approaching the landing at too fast a speed to stop before running out of runway

4) Not landing the usual direction on the runway (so unfamiliarity)

These last three mean

5) Hitting the big unmovable object a short distance past the “wrong” end of the runway which means the plane explodes as opposed to the big object shattering.

perhaps crew resource management challenges arising from point 1 contribute to sub optimal decision making on points 2-4

Bird strike seems to be a minor detail, red herring?

 

[Petcha]

The bird strike probably put the panic into the crew at the very least. But could also have fucked up the hydraulics. But I don't know why they didnt give them more time to circle before coming up with a better solution than crashing into a massive concrete wall with loads of fuel in the tank, there was only going to be one outcome there.

 

[vinba]

Mentour pilot on his channel talks about the swiss cheese model to accidents. Lots off things line up to create the holes that ultimately lead to an accident taking place.

Also it is possible to lower the landing gear without hydraulics. Gravity does the work for you. Of course you need the time to do this:

 

[Petcha]

Not just me asking why he landed so soon after declaring an emergency when he still had plenty of fuel and therefore time to figure out a better solution

South Korea plane crash investigations intensify as questions raised over airport embankment

Families of the dead remain at Muan international airport to demand more information, as criticism of airport layout mounts

www.theguardian.com

 

[vinba]

Timeline according to AvHerald

8:54L: Muan airport air traffic control clears the aircraft to land on runway 01
8:57L: Air traffic control broadcasts “caution - bird activity” advisory.
8:58:25L: altitude 450 ft, positive vspeed [FR24]
8:58:34L: altitude 625 ft, negative vspeed [FR24]
8:58:50L: The last ADS-B message received from the aircraft occurred at 23:58:50 UTC with the aircraft located at 34.95966, 126.38426 (approx 5000 ft from runway threshold) at an altitude of 500 feet approaching Runway 1 at Muan. [FR24]
8:59L: Flight 7C-2216 pilot reports bird strike, declares emergency “Mayday Mayday Mayday” and “Bird strike, bird strike, go-around.”
9:00L: Flight 7C2216 initiates a go-around and requests authorisation to land on runway 19, which is by approach from the opposite end of the airport’s single runway.
9:01L: Air traffic control clears the aircraft to land on runway 19.
9:02L: Flight 7C-2216 touches down on the runway about 1,200m (3940 feet) down on the 2,800m (9184 feet) long runway.
9:02:34L: Air traffic control alerts “crash bell” at airport fire rescue unit.
9:02:55L: Airport fire rescue unit completes deploying fire rescue equipment.
9:03L: Flight 7C-2216 crashes into embankment after over-shooting the runway.
9:10L: The transport ministry receives an accident report from airport authorities.
9:23L: One male rescued and transported to a temporary medical facility.
9:38L: Muan airport is closed.
9:50L: Rescue completed of a second person from inside tail section of the plane.

9 minutes between initial clearance to land and them crashing into the berm..

 

[Petcha]

The whole thing looks like there might be an element of an inexperienced pilot. He should have known about the alternative way to lower the gear and should have just gone into a holding pattern rather than immediately landing. He still had one engine.

 

[krtek a houby]

I guess it's easy for us groundlings to say what should and shouldn't have been done, but none of us are flying planes and you know, things happen rapidly and panic can set in.

Maybe ease up on the judgement until we're sure of how it played out.

 

[Petcha]

I guess it's easy for us groundlings to say what should and shouldn't have been done, but none of us are flying planes and you know, things happen rapidly and panic can set in.

Maybe ease up on the judgement until we're sure of how it played out.

I'm sure the insurance companies on behalf of the airline and whoever owns that airport would prefer it was blurred a whole lot...