Plaids future direction

[trampie]

Plaid need to go for populist measures to do a SNP, they need to appeal to the bulk of the population particularly those in the South Wales valleys and industrial towns as that is where most of the seats in Wales are and where the people are left wingers, Plaid need to move away from independence and the Welsh language but dont have to necessarily give up on either to appease lots of their current supporters but they need to make those issues minor issues and not major issues to have any chance of being the biggest party in Wales one day in the future.

Plaid have reached their high water mark, for Plaid to break out of its heartlands it needs to appeal to a wider audience if it has any ambitions for power in Wales, a lot of hardcore supporters would be upset if Plaid moved away from independance and the language and Plaid could lose support in its heartlands but it would be the only way forward, Plaid needs to decide if it wants to remain a fairly minor player or try and become a major player.

 

[Karac]

The SNP did spectacularly well in the recent elections, offering probably not much more than Labour circa 1980 plus the option of more financial autonomy in the future-the main thing in Scotland was the meltdown in the Libdem vote there plus the already healthy distrust of the Tories.

 

[Proper Tidy]

they need to appeal to the bulk of the population particularly those in the South Wales valleys and industrial towns as that is where most of the seats in Wales are and where the people are left wingers, Plaid need to move away from independence and the Welsh language but dont have to necessarily give up on either to appease lots of their current supporters but they need to make those issues minor issues and not major issues to have any chance

You are actually right here. Might be a stopped clock scenario, but still.

 

[trampie]

Nice of you to say so.

 

[la ressistance]

they need to get the big "hatred of people who dont cant speak welsh cos that makes them practically english" chip of their fucking shoulder.

oh, and get some policies that dont involve train lines from cardiff to anglesey.

 

[Ben Bore]

they need to get the big "hatred of people who dont cant speak welsh cos that makes them practically english" chip of their fucking shoulder.

Care to give any examples of this?

Though not.

 

[Ben Bore]

Plaid need to move away from independence and the Welsh language .

What particular policies on the Welsh language (and Independance) do you think they should drop or alter?

but dont have to necessarily give up on either to appease lots of their current supporters but they need to make those issues minor issues and not major issues to have any chance of being the biggest party in Wales one day in the future.

I think that's what they've actually been doing for the last 40 years, but people still peddle the line that they're just a party for Welsh speakers in Gwynedd, when in reality, they get some of their best results (as in 'close to ousting Labour) in seats like Rhondda, Islwyn, Caerffili and Neath, all post-industrial areas where the main language spoken is English.

 

[trampie]

What particular policies on the Welsh language (and Independance) do you think they should drop or alter?



I think that's what they've actually been doing for the last 40 years, but people still peddle the line that they're just a party for Welsh speakers in Gwynedd, when in reality, they get some of their best results (as in 'close to ousting Labour) in seats like Rhondda, Islwyn, Caerffili and Neath, all post-industrial areas where the main language spoken is English.

Yes I agree, what did you say - 'people still peddle the line that they're just a party for Welsh speakers', exactly you just said it, also people peddle the line that they want independence at all costs.
That is the general perception of Plaid in the industrial towns and in the valleys in the South, like you say Plaid for the last 40 years has not been very vocal on independence or the Welsh language but they are not getting their message across to these target areas, if Plaid choose to go for the popular vote {their only chance of ever winning Wales}, Plaid need to be upfront and say that the language and independence are secondary issues, the economy, health and education are primary issues, unless Plaid ram that message home they will never be the biggest party in Wales, Plaid have reached their high water mark.
You may know what Plaid stand for and their current position on things, I may know also, but the majority of voters in these target areas for Plaid, have a stereotype image of Plaid, that in my view is wrong but if thats what people think then thats what people think, Plaid need to change the stereotype image of themselves if they are to move forward.
Plaid need to decide if they want to emulate the SNP or be nothing more than a strong lobby group.

 

[Black Eagle]

If Plaid is not for independence what is the point of It? The SNP in Scotland shows that Plaid should be pushing the independence agenda very hard. Who should decide our foreign policy? A gang of old Etonian English people or the people of Wales through our democratically elected Welsh Government? Plaid's fault is that it has been to timid and has not led public opinion.

 

[trampie]

According to opinion polls only approx 1 in 10 in Wales currently want independence, and only 1 in 4 or 5 inside Plaid Cymru itself want independence {apparently only 1 in 4 Scots currently want independence}, so do Plaid want to appeal to the hardcore and remain also rans or do they want to appeal to the masses and perhaps become the largest party in Wales one day ? {the SNP didnt push the independence card}

 

[lewislewis]

To a massive extent, the SNP comparisons really do cloud things. Scotland and Wales are very different countries.

I think basically Plaid has been doing the right things and moving in the right direction. The problem is that the composition of society and public opinion in Wales doesn't match what Plaid wants.

The challenge is that the three 'major' parties (for want of a better term), that is Labour, the Tories and Lib Dems, basically move around within the context of neoliberalism and can try and win elections by changing their positions etc.

Plaid is simply way more ideological than the centrist parties. It has loads of baggage based around its beliefs on independence and the language, which simply cannot be "ditched" because it's rightly part of their DNA as a political force. The contradiction is that Plaid wants to outfight the neoliberal centrist parties on their own terrain, when in reality it has more in common with a vanguardist party rather than a managerial or governing party.

Arguing that the SNP "didn't push the independence card" is wrong. Everyone in Scotland associates the SNP with independence, to a much greater extent than Plaid is associated with Welsh independence. People in Scotland voted for Salmond's programme rather than for Scottish independence, but independence is definitely one of the top three issues in Scotland whereas in Wales it doesn't really figure.

As for remaining the "also rans", if the point of Plaid Cymru is to advance the nationalist cause, history in Wales (which is what we should be learning from, not Scotland) shows that Plaid's agenda has always moved forward every time they have surged at elections. They need to keep moving forward- which is why 2011 will be seen as a huge defeat- but not necessarily aim to be the largest party at this point. I would adopt a vanguardist/popular frontist strategy of applying pressure on the other parties to do things which will advance Plaid's national agenda. In the short to medium term I would focus on criminal justice, a Welsh judicial system and to engage with the debate around taxation and fiscal responsibility in a progressive but nationalist manner.

In all, Wales as a nation lacks the institutional, cultural and psychological capacity for Plaid's ideas to become mainstream in the way that the SNP's ideas have been mainstream for some time in Scotland. Building up that capacity is a long and patient task but show me 1997 and compare it to where we are now, and as a nationalist I am quite satisfied.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I do also think that there is a certain amount of disappointment about Plaid's performance in government amongst (possibly now former) Plaid voters who were attracted to Plaid not particularly because of the national question - more because it is not perceived as a key issue rather than hostility to it - but because they saw Plaid as a social-democratic option; as a replacement for Labour in effect.

With what you say lewislewis - about Plaid having more in common with a vanguardist party, applying pressure etc - I do think that Welsh Labour's much trumpeted 'clear red water' (10% truth, 90% myth) is in part down to pressure on Labour's base from Plaid. I mean, overall, I think it is largely just a reflection of public opinion in Wales, but I do think Plaid have played a part.

In short, though, I don't think Plaid are perceived as so radical an option as they were a few years back. Which imo is right tbh, because the reality never matched the spin anyway.

 

[Black Eagle]

Why dont people support independence? Because in recent years no one has really campaigned for it. In Scotland the SNP have campaigned for it and got the results.
In my view if you have lived in Wales for three years you are a Welsh citizen and should support the development of democracy in this country.The unionist parties have nothing to offer the Welsh people, they are all essentially Tory Parties. Cameron, Blair, Clegg whats the difference? Nothing.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Bleating about why the majority don't support independence will get you nowhere. The reality is that they don't, and won't if your remedy to this is hectoring them. Those looking for autonomy and potentially an independent republic need to build support for this agenda by addressing the needs of the majority in Wales, by providing working-class political representation.

The 'unionist' parties are all neo-liberal. However, Plaid's record in local government and the assembly isn't significantly different to the Westminster parties. There is your problem.

People mostly give a fuck about all the boring stuff like jobs and services and homes and opportunities for young people rather than romantic visions of the future or flagwaving. That is just the way it is.

 

[lewislewis]

I do also think that there is a certain amount of disappointment about Plaid's performance in government amongst (possibly now former) Plaid voters who were attracted to Plaid not particularly because of the national question - more because it is not perceived as a key issue rather than hostility to it - but because they saw Plaid as a social-democratic option; as a replacement for Labour in effect.

What did Plaid do in government that wasn't (at least) social-democratic? Mark Serwotka commented that Plaid's economic development policies in the Welsh Govt (under Ieuan Wyn Jones- not seen as an explicitly socialist politician) went against the grain of neoliberalism. Didn't do them any good mind, but I don't see how Plaid's junior role in govt was anything other than progressive.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I'd agree with Serwotka tbf. Plaid aren't a neoliberal party, although I'd add the caveat that they've been allowed the luxury of not being a neoliberal party which are conditions that won't always exist iyswim.

The point I am making is that Plaid simply did not prove to be the radical option that many working class voters had hoped they would be. I'd be hard pushed to single out anything Plaid got from One Wales other than furthering devolution, which reinforces the view of many that Plaid are still at root a single-issue party.

It would have done them some good had they pushed a more radical agenda, but the perception - a justified one imo - is that the national question aside there is little difference between Plaid and Welsh Labour. Which makes it easy for people to turn back to Labour.

Out of interest, what did Plaid do in government that was social-democratic, or indeed more than social-democratic?

 

[lewislewis]

I'd agree with Serwotka tbf. Plaid aren't a neoliberal party, although I'd add the caveat that they've been allowed the luxury of not being a neoliberal party which are conditions that won't always exist iyswim.

The point I am making is that Plaid simply did not prove to be the radical option that many working class voters had hoped they would be. I'd be hard pushed to single out anything Plaid got from One Wales other than furthering devolution, which reinforces the view of many that Plaid are still at root a single-issue party.

It would have done them some good had they pushed a more radical agenda, but the perception - a justified one imo - is that the national question aside there is little difference between Plaid and Welsh Labour. Which makes it easy for people to turn back to Labour.

Out of interest, what did Plaid do in government that was social-democratic, or indeed more than social-democratic?

I'm surprised at this because I know you follow Welsh politics more closely than most.

Bearing in mind I am a democratic socialist, not a social democrat- but I accept Plaid is a social democratic party rather than a socialist one.

As a starting point, the default position of the One Wales govt was social democracy, that is the left-of-New-Labour position that Welsh Labour represents.

On top of that, Plaid achieved alot more than just furthering devolution. Welsh Labour had wanted to serve a marketised agenda by reducing the number of hospitals in Wales- Plaid secured an end to the hospital downgrading programme and actually secured investment to expand one of the hospitals that had been marked for downgrading (Llandudno). They ended the internal market in the NHS, which Welsh Labour had maintained when they governed alone.

In the areas which Plaid controlled they ploughed public funds into building social housing at a time when the UK Govt- a Labour government- oversaw a reduction in social housing and a refusal to build council houses. A double edged sword because of the Treasury regulations (Which aren't devolved) and the WHQS stock transfer stuff of course...

In rural affairs Plaid fought for a rural health plan and state actions that would help working class rural people (who are neglected by the other parties).

Their programme was at the very least social democratic.

 

[Karac]

In all, Wales as a nation lacks the institutional, cultural and psychological capacity for Plaid's ideas to become mainstream in the way that the SNP's ideas have been mainstream for some time in Scotland. Building up that capacity is a long and patient task but show me 1997 and compare it to where we are now, and as a nationalist I am quite satisfied.

I think thats the main problem/issue-Scotland has an independent press,legal system and large financial sector that Wales has never really had.(Apart from Hywel Dda)
So an independent Scotland isnt such a massive leap of faith.
Most people in Wales rely on basically English based media where Wales is very rarely mentioned if at all.
Its changing and has changed-many people who were vehemently against any idea of Wales being in charge of its own destiny in the last vote on devolution voted in favour of more powers this time
Were probably 5 10 to 15 years behind Scotland

 

[lewislewis]

Regarding Plaid in local government, this is obviously propaganda, but their record in Caerffili is not comparable to the remaining Labour-controlled councils in Wales in terms of how they have treated workers, including not issuing any compulsory redundancies. They secured equal pay for female workers at a time when most councils in Wales are lagging behind on that legal agenda.

http://www.english.plaidcymru.org/the-slate/2011/05/31/eleven-months-to-take-charge/

 

[bendeus]

they need to get the big "hatred of people who dont cant speak welsh cos that makes them practically english" chip of their fucking shoulder.

oh, and get some policies that dont involve train lines from cardiff to anglesey.

FFS. We need a more strident facepalm smilie.

 

[ddraig]

Adam Price's Harvard speech
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCY2...kQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNGWUSy26_8e3B4hzOonuG53CzHkbw
if you can sit through it

Adam Price delivered an address titled "Declaration of Independence 2.0" on May
26, 2011

 

[Karac]

Adam Price's Harvard speech
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCY2...kQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNGWUSy26_8e3B4hzOonuG53CzHkbw
if you can sit through it

He could be the man-tho its a bit like a Welsh version of Barak Obama-insult no one