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physics question

Ok thanks, I will read up on the basics of space-time, I think what I was trying to get at was whether a planet represents negative space in the 'fabric' of space, sort of like a black hole but with actual matter in it... This is a assuming that a black hole is considered to be negative space...
And how this relates to gravity.
You don't have to answer my questions if they seem too crazy etc lol :D
Black holes are made of actual matter (most commonly collapsed stars).

The strength of gravity depends on how much matter there is and how close to the centre of it you are (without being inside it). A black hole is where there's a distance outside of it where the gravity is strong enough to prevent light escaping. i.e. you need enough matter squashed into a small enough space.

To make the Sun into a black hole you'd have to squash it down to a few km diameter, but at the Earth's distance its gravity would be the same strength as it is now.
 
Black holes are made of actual matter (most commonly collapsed stars).

I'm pretty sure that's not been established with any certainty. I think it would be more accurate to say that black holes form from actual matter. The mathematics we've got (GR and QM) for describing the interiors of black holes don't play nice with each other and result in infinities, which strike me as unphysical. Our models aren't complete enough to say what black holes are really made of.
 
I'm calling it negative space for now...
I have another slightly related question.
Is there much evidence of seed germination and subsequent healthy plant growth in space? For example on a space station.
The key thing here is healthy germination.
 
It only talks about roots...
I have seen no evidence of shoots.. I even read somewhere that they have only just managed to get lamps for growing plants onto the space station, and claimed to have conducted ALL previous plant growth experiments in the dark..
 
Firstly the image on the header of that webpage is CGI, also why did they use red leaved lettuce and not green?
I still can't see any evidence of healthy germination, the guy in the video (from 'Veggie') even said that the plants were delivered to them, I am assuming pre grown.
 
It only talks about roots...
I have seen no evidence of shoots.. I even read somewhere that they have only just managed to get lamps for growing plants onto the space station, and claimed to have conducted ALL previous plant growth experiments in the dark..

You can't get roots without first germinating seeds. Do you really think that NASA would not actually try germinating seeds in orbit? Seems like a massive and obvious oversight for a scientific organisation with the mission of investigating how to support human life in space.

Firstly the image on the header of that webpage is CGI, also why did they use red leaved lettuce and not green?
I still can't see any evidence of healthy germination, the guy in the video (from 'Veggie') even said that the plants were delivered to them, I am assuming pre grown.

Is this image real enough for you?

iss044e033362-veggie1_1.jpg


Why does the colour of the lettuce matter?

As for evidence of germination, did you not see the little pads in the video? Why do you assume pre-grown? Here's another NASA video where they talk about sending seeds up to the ISS:



"We've done it a couple of ways but the easiest way, the most effective way to do plant growth on the International Space Station is quite naturally to send seeds. Seeds are the dormant life storage form of plants" - Dr Rob Ferl, Co-Principle Investigator, Advanced Plant Experiment (APEX) - 03

As for whether that germination is healthy, that depends on how strict your definition of healthy is. See the results plainly in the above picture and judge for yourself. Looks alright to me; I've been served worse here on Earth.
 
NoXion roots emerge first in germination, followed by shoots.
I'm interested in protein assembly, folding and tertiary structures in zero gravity environments, specifically the proteins involved in photosynthesis.
 
NoXion roots emerge first in germination, followed by shoots.
I'm interested in protein assembly, folding and tertiary structures in zero gravity environments, specifically the proteins involved in photosynthesis.

Still, the fact that seeds can produce roots at all, let alone produce reasonably healthy looking plants, would seem to be a good indicator of the viability of growing plants in free-fall conditions. This means that in any future long-duration mission, the vehicle's designers will likely not need to devote room on any rotating sections of it. This would mean a simpler design as the rotating section can be smaller.

I wouldn't have thought that free-fall conditions would have much impact down to the scale of protein molecules - gravity doesn't mean much to objects so small that even water is like jelly. Nevertheless, I had a quick look and found this:

During ISS Expedition 4, PESTO grew 32 plants for 73 days inside the plant growth chambers of the Biomass Production System (BPS). Following return to Earth, these plants were compared to ground controls that were grown in BPS plant growth chambers on Earth.

The PESTO investigation had three dimensions that resulted in a more complete picture of microgravity influences on photosynthesis: gas exchange, partitioning and metabolism. Carbon dioxide and light response curves allowed researchers to establish whether canopy photosynthetic responses were affected by space conditions. This is noteworthy since plants can be used to regenerate the atmosphere in space conditions though removal of carbon dioxide and production of oxygen. In addition, the tests that evaluated movement of water via transpiration are important since they are indicative of the stomatal responses that regulate photosynthesis. Further, the impact of microgravity on transpiration was significant since plants can be used to purify water under space flight conditions. These studies involving gas exchange at elevated carbon dioxide concentrations increased our understanding of the biological impacts of increasing levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide on Earth-based ecosystems. Furthermore, an understanding of plant responses under a range of carbon dioxide and light conditions has potential benefits to commercial, controlled environment, agriculture industries.

The growth and development of the dwarf wheat plants on the ISS was similar to the growth and development of plants on Earth. Analysis of the plants indicated that the microgravity-grown plants were 10% taller than plants grown on Earth, although the growth rate of dwarf wheat leaves was very similar to the plants grown on Earth. The near-real-time video data provided by BPS allowed for validation of the growth data in microgravity when compared to the controls. Design applications can be made to the BPS to allow for successful plant production on the ISS and future long-duration missions to the Moon and Mars (Stutte et al. 2003).

To effectively farm in space, multiple redundant plant growth chambers will be needed to acquire the maximum yield of food, oxygen, and water. PESTO evaluated the transpiration (water) and photosynthesis (oxygen) processes of the dwarf wheat plant in microgravity and found that microgravity did not affect either the transpiration or the photosynthesis processes of the plants (Monje et al. 2005).

When environmental controls such as temperature, relative humidity, carbon dioxide, and water are effectively maintained, microgravity does not affect canopy growth of dwarf wheat plants. Slight differences in photosystem I (photosynthesis in which light of up to 700 nm is absorbed and reduced to create energy) and photosystem II (photosynthesis in which light of up to 680 nm is absorbed and its energy is used to split water molecules, giving rise to oxygen) were noted and are being evaluated further (Stutte et al. 2005).

When conducting biological studies, it is important to maintain the integrity of the samples. The standard method to preserve samples is quick freezing at low temperatures (-80 degrees C (-112 degrees F) and below), but strict temperature control of samples on station is not always uniform or possible. Therefore, a preservative is needed that will maintain the integrity of biological samples before cooling. RNAlaterTM was used to preserve some of the PESTO samples on station. The viability of the samples preserved with RNAlaterTM was greater than that of the samples preserved using formalin. To carry out long-term studies aboard ISS, a fixative such as RNAlaterTM is needed to maintain the integrity of samples at the varying temperatures that are experienced on ISS (Paul et al. 2005).

The objective of PESTO was to determine what effects microgravity have on chloroplast development, carbohydrate metabolism, and gene expression in the leaves of the plants grown on the ISS. PESTO data indicated that microgravity alters leaf development, cell structure and chloroplast morphology, but does not compromise the overall physical function of the plant (Stutte et al. 2006).

Along with the results from studies of root structure development in free-fall previously mentioned, it seems that plants are not reliant on gravity to ensure the functional development of their microscopic structures.
 
But I'm not talking about microscopic structures, I'm talking about the components of the photosynthetic processess by which energy is generated from light.

It involves a protein cascade yes? Where the protein changes both chemically and structurally becoming more folded in its tertiary form and emitting energy along the cascade?
I was wondering how or if this was affected by gravity.
 
But I'm not talking about microscopic structures, I'm talking about the components of the photosynthetic processess by which energy is generated from light.

It involves a protein cascade yes? Where the protein changes both chemically and structurally becoming more folded in its tertiary form and emitting energy along the cascade?
I was wondering how or if this was affected by gravity.

If microscopic structures like chloroplasts are not significantly affected by free-fall conditions, then it hardly seems likely that the proteins essential to their functions would be.
 
Nullius in verba...

The reason i was asking about germination in space was to be sure that no precursor or 'template' proteins involved in photosynthetic energy transfer were present in the plant prior to them being shipped to the space station.
I queried the red lettuce used onboard the space station as the red pigments could have masked any chlorophyll deficiencies etc..
 
Nullius in verba...

The reason i was asking about germination in space was to be sure that no precursor or 'template' proteins involved in photosynthetic energy transfer were present in the plant prior to them being shipped to the space station.
I queried the red lettuce used onboard the space station as the red pigments could have masked any chlorophyll deficiencies etc..

Well here's a video about the first lettuce harvest:



So if you don't want to take their word for it, you can see the lettuce leaves in more ordinary lighting, rather than that weird fuchsia lighting they've got going on when actually growing the plants.
 
To put another way: if you imagine the universe had a boundary, an 'edge' which you fell off to oblivion so to speak - well that's much like a black hole. I don't really think it makes sense to say a black hole is comprised of anything. It is entirely defined by things outside it. Everything that 'matters' in the universe is outside a black hole.
 
They've grown red lettuce amongst other things, as you've been shown.

The thing is, you can put a plant in the dark and it will still grow, some of the 'green' plants they've shown look seriously etiolated..
Maybe the red lettuce looks healthier because the red pigments gather energy via a different metabolic pathway to chlorophyll??

They even used genetically engineered Arabidopsis that glows green in the dark onboard the space station.
 
It has mass because it is comprised of matter.
I don't accept this. It has mass because it exerts a gravitational pull to the outside. I don't see that it makes any sense to say that it is comprised of anything. I don't think you could say that time or space exist on the inside. I don't know even if you could say they have an inside.
 
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