Photographer writes excellent letter to the band Garbage about unpaid photo use

[littlebabyjesus]

Depends what you're hiring him to do, I reckon.

If you're never going to ask him for free publication of stuff you might hire him regardless.
The fact he wrote the thing in the first places makes me think he's probably diversified a bit anyway.

Second bit - possibly, yes.

First bit? If you're going to be difficult and stroppy in public, you'd better be the fucking best in your field. Otherwise, there are plenty of non-difficult, non-stroppy people looking for work.

 

[Fez909]

Second bit - possibly, yes.

First bit? If you're going to be difficult and stroppy in public, you'd better be the fucking best in your field. Otherwise, there are plenty of non-difficult, non-stroppy people looking for work.

Eh, no.

Why should only the "best in the field" get to complain about something that affects everyone. If no one says anything, nothing will change. Someone has to speak up.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Eh, no.

Why should only the "best in the field" get to complain about something that affects everyone. If no one says anything, nothing will change. Someone has to speak up.

I have a different attitude towards this, I think. I'm not saying I think it's ok the way people are increasingly asked to give their work away. I don't. But it was a polite request that was then made embarrassingly public. Even if you are the best in your field, it's rude to do that.

And spymaster is completely right - first of all, you ask for payment and see what they say.

 

[Fez909]

I have a different attitude towards this, I think. I'm not saying I think it's ok the way people are increasingly asked to give their work away. I don't. But it was a polite request that was then made embarrassingly public. Even if you are the best in your field, it's rude to do that.

And spymaster is completely right - first of all, you ask for payment and see what they say.

And how do you get this sort of thing to stop without going public?

 

[8ball]

And how do you get this sort of thing to stop without going public?

What, people asking for things?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And how do you get this sort of thing to stop without going public?

You refuse permission, and encourage others to do the same.

This has stopped fuck all, though. It's even given garbage the public opportunity to say how loads of other photographers did agree to do it without a fee.

 

[Spymaster]

Eh, no.

Why should only the "best in the field" get to complain about something that affects everyone. If no one says anything, nothing will change. Someone has to speak up.

He got a cheeky offer. It happens every day to most people that run their own businesses. Most would counter-offer before going publicly bananas.

If I were someone in need of photographic services and Pope wasn't the only bloke who could provide them; after seeing that rant I'd go elsewhere.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

tbh reading his rant again, the 'I worked hard on it' bit is laying things on rather too thick. He was paid for the shoot, and probably pretty well. Money from reuse is really a bit of a bonus. Not saying he shouldn't get his bonus for reuse - he should - but he's self-pitying there as if he had never been paid anything for all his hard work.

 

[Orang Utan]

There are people out there who want to pay for their services properly and do so. don't see why they;d be be put off by someone complaining about not being paid. the only people who'd be put off were people who'd want to rip their creatives off in the first place

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are people out there who want to pay for their services properly and do so. don't see why they;d be be put off by someone complaining about not being paid. the only people who'd be put off were people who'd want to rip their creatives off in the first place

Nah, that's really not true. This is a public rant. You've got to be able to trust people not to publicly rant about you after you've worked with them because they don't like something you did.

tHey didn't use his work without paying. They just asked to use it. There's an enormous difference.

 

[Orang Utan]

Nah, that's really not true. This is a public rant. You've got to be able to trust people not to publicly rant about you after you've worked with them because they don't like something you did.

even if you haven't paid them? nah, fuck em

 

[littlebabyjesus]

even if you haven't paid them? nah, fuck em

This time it's because he was asked for a free reuse. Next time it will be what? That the shoot overran and you didn't pay what he thinks you should? Or payment was late from someone you don't even have control over? Nah. He's embarrassed the band personally by involving them. That is basic unprofessionalism.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are people out there who want to pay for their services properly and do so.

Sad truth about this bit is that increasingly it is not true.

 

[8ball]

Sad truth about this bit is that increasingly it is not true.

Depends on the particular industry area.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Depends on the particular industry area.

In the areas of book publishing I know, it is very much increasingly true. That said, top photographers hired to do shoots with well-known bands are very well paid. A friend of mine used to work as an assistant to a well-known photographer and he charged 1 grand a day. She got 100 of that, so it still left him with 900. It's good work if you can get it.

 

[8ball]

In the areas of book publishing I know, it is very much increasingly true.

Did you mean not true?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Did you mean not true?

Yes, sorry.

 

[8ball]

Yes, sorry.

It's a shame. 'Everyone needs to eat' is an important principle.

 

[skyscraper101]

Am I alone thinking that the photo in the OP isn't even that good. Terrible lighting on all of them. Makes Shirley look particularly old and you can't even see the others that well its so dark. I wouldn't want it anywhere near my vanity project if I was them.

Regardless, even if the band hadn't sold millions of records which they have, the fortunes of Butch Vig alone would be enough to put out an initial few thousand books and credit enough photographers with a payment. He's got points on Nevermind ffs! As well as numerous other hit albums by Smashing Pumpkins, Sonic Youth, L7, Tad, Helmet, Foo Fighters... etc - not to mention all the other endorsements he gives his name too. I was watching a video the other day featuring some protools plugin which he's pushing. I bet he rakes it in.

Can't pay the photographer my arse.

 

[5t3IIa]

I met Shirely once TWENTY SIX YEARS AGO. Got her autograph IM SO OLD AND SO ARE ALL OF YOU.

 

[weltweit]

Interesting they say they paid for the photoshoot so expect further usage for free. A little like a concert goer having paid for the concert then expecting any resulting tapes, records or videos to be free!

 

[Fez909]

You refuse permission, and encourage others to do the same.

How?

 

[gabi]

Were the pics rights managed or royalty free?

As a designer I've spent hours bashing out the details for rights managed pics. Of course you can also just buy exclusive use and they're taken off the market for good. Did Garbage do that? Presumably a contract was signed with the guy, would be interesting to read it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting they say they paid for the photoshoot so expect further usage for free. A little like a concert goer having paid for the concert then expecting any resulting tapes, records or videos to be free!

He provoked that with his 'I worked hard' schtick.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Were the pics rights managed or royalty free?

As a designer I've spent hours bashing out the details for rights managed pics. Of course you can also just buy exclusive use and they're taken off the market for good. Did Garbage do that? Presumably a contract was signed with the guy, would be interesting to read it.

Presumably he kept copyright. It is standard to keep copyright unless expressly stated otherwise.

The band also has image release rights. They can get arsey with him if he ever wants to use the image, too.

 

[twentythreedom]

They could have offered him some book tokens at least

 

[Fez909]

littlebabyjesus are you only defending the band and criticising the photographer to make yourself feel less guilty because you've been on the other side? It seems like it to me, as I can't understand why you'd think it's OK for a band who have sold millions of albums to ask for freebies from photographers, but it's not OK for the photographer to highlight this publicly.

To me, saying the photographer shouldn't go public, is the same as when employers force you not to talk about your salary to other people. The reason being, if you don't know, you can't fight it effectively. By going public, other photographers can join him and fight for better recognition and pay. And musicians might be less willing to ask for freebies if they think it's going to negatively impact on their image.

Is there a similar body to the BPI for photographers? What have they got to say on it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not defending the band. I've said that I think both parties come out of this badly. But Iet's get some perspective here. He will have been well paid initially for the shoot, and nobody has used his work without permission. This was just an email asking to use an image without paying a reuse fee.

Your second paragraph is unrealistic, I'm afraid. He is selling his professional services, and trust is a big part of that. The band did not betray his trust by sending him an email asking to use an image. But he has betrayed their trust by going public.

 

[Orang Utan]

He's right to 'betray' them (if indeed that's what he's doing) by going public about them wanting to rip him off

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He's being a self-righteous arse about it. And running to social media for a public rant about clients as soon as one of them asks you for something you're not prepared to give them is a bollocks way to behave.