Occupy 2nd Wave - May

[kavenism]

Well, I suppose the more nuanced argument (and to be honest, biotech was a new field when I studied biology) is that medical research is in conformity with quite a few more safeguards, and "exposure" to GM medicines is limited to those who require such novel creations, whereas the average GM crop of the 1990s was fairly poorly-controlled in terms of limiting the various routes by which the GM lines could cross into the general population. For all the boasting about sterility and the impossibility of cross-fertilisation, for example, we know that some "terminator" lines of seeds didn't terminate, and cross-bred with other strains. All in all, I suspect that Luddism (Hail Ned!) is less of an issue than public concerns (some well-informed, some poorly-informed) about possible environmental consequences, and the blithe disregard that the politicians and Big Farma (see what I did there? ) showed those public concerns when the technology was new still go a long way in informing reaction to the idea of agricultural GMOs.

Yeah I think the lack of regulatory control would be my main concern. The standards and safeguards for use of engineered crops are nothing compared to what you have for use of pharmaceuticals. I don’t think there is even a recognised standard of quality assurance for the trial usage of such things like there is for use of new drugs. The FDA once burnt a load of Wilhelm Reich’s orgone books in the US, can’t see them ever taking such a hard line against these big agro companies and torching a few crops that fail to meet standards. Safeguards against cross contamination for active pharmaceutical ingredients is number 1 on any auditors list when they come to my place, but for these crops it seems like they’re happy to just hope the wind doesn’t blow too hard and spread the stuff around! Still I’m not against them in principle.

 

[kavenism]

The behaviour of the GMO seed companies is kinda critical to the arguments, no? My dad was a farmer and he used to have a field for growing seed rather than buy it each year. The cost difference to a small farmer is huge because family labour comes free (big farming conglomerates are better off paying a seed company than they are paying people to pull out the weeds by hand). The benefit of GM crops to small farmers is very, very limited when every penny of any advantage gained will be reflected in the price of the seed to the farmers. It's really very naive to argue that these companies are doing something which benefits small farmers - they're not charities.

The other problem is the idea that GMO is a single technology. Proving one particular GMO safe/unsafe tells you nothing at all about the others. Even if it is credible to assume that you can prove anything at all about an agricultural GMO without far more extensive and long-term field trials than the ones they are required to carry out.

But, as butcher's said, of far more concern is how this hippy crap got released by a bunch of facile morons on behalf of everyone else.

I can agree with all of that. But surely this is an argument against the economics of the industry rather than the science involved? We all know big pharma is down in Judas Pit in terms of ethics, but is it not conceivable that under a different set of economic imperatives and proper oversight it could be a force for good all the way down?

 

[shaman75]

spain makes it look like a massive joke

 

[ymu]

I can agree with all of that. But surely this is an argument against the economics of the industry rather than the science involved? We all know big pharma is down in Judas Pit in terms of ethics, but is it not conceivable that under a different set of economic imperatives and proper oversight it could be a force for good all the way down?

Trouble is, we live in an all too real world. You can't argue that they'd be an excellent innovation if only we lived in a different time and place.

It's much the same as people arguing we can't criticise the police because we need them to investigate crime. It misses the point spectacularly. And it's supposed to. A coherent argument would conclude that some things are too important to society as a whole to allow such conflicts of interest to arise. You can't just park the problem of capitalism in order to defend the industry when the problem stems precisely from the fact that they are rewarded on the basis of blind profit, and not on the amount of value they create for society as a whole.

 

[kavenism]

Trouble is, we live in an all too real world. You can't argue that they'd be an excellent innovation if only we lived in a different time and place.

It's much the same as people arguing we can't criticise the police because we need them to investigate crime. It misses the point spectacularly. And it's supposed to. A coherent argument would conclude that some things are too important to society as a whole to allow such conflicts of interest to arise. You can't just park the problem of capitalism in order to defend the industry when the problem stems precisely from the fact that they are rewarded on the basis of blind profit, and not on the amount of value they create for society as a whole.

I’m not clear what position you’re taking here. Are you claiming that there is no way for life saving drugs to be produced without evoking some capitalist monolith that would inevitably corrupt all the good inherent in curing disease? I don’t think the comparison the police holds any water. They are corrupt by function, which is the protection of private property in a class society, I don’t see the corruption of big pharma emanating from the function of producing products that treat illnesses. Are you seriously suggesting that you would do away with all the progress that has been made through the mass availability of pharmaceuticals over the last 100 years, and you can provide a convincing argument that the overall welfare of humanity would be better for that? Shouldn't the argument rather be that the re-organisation of production on a non-profit basis along with putting availability on an egalitarian footing would solve many of the problems?

 

[treelover]

spain makes it look like a massive joke

250,000 and growing tonight in Barecelona, youth unemployment is terrible here in the UK, but no real reaction...

why?

 

[ymu]

I’m not clear what position you’re taking here. Are you claiming that there is no way for life saving drugs to be produced without evoking some capitalist monolith that would inevitably corrupt all the good inherent in curing disease? I don’t think the comparison the police holds any water. They are corrupt by function, which is the protection of private property in a class society, I don’t see the corruption of big pharma emanating from the function of producing products that treat illnesses. Are you seriously suggesting that you would do away with all the progress that has been made through the mass availability of pharmaceuticals over the last 100 years, and you can provide a convincing argument that the overall welfare of humanity would be better for that? Shouldn't the argument rather be that the re-organisation of production on a non-profit basis along with putting availability on an egalitarian footing would solve many of the problems?

I'm a public sector medical statistician. I've spent the last twenty years exposing the pharmaceutical industry's penchant for harming people for profit. I am certain that we'd be a lot better off without an all-powerful industry that spends far, far more on marketing than it does on R&D.

I am saying that you cannot shrug off the conflicts of interest produced by capitalism by defending the technology regardless of the framework within which it is implemented. The profit motive creates irreconcilable conflicts of interest which diverts things which could do great good into the hands of those who will use them to do great harm, if that's what it takes to fill their pockets with money.

And no, I don't think we need them to have access to any benefits the technology might provide. They would not exist without the publicly-funded science that created their product in the first place.

 

[BigTom]

250,000 and growing tonight in Barecelona, youth unemployment is terrible here in the UK, but no real reaction...

why?

UK youth unemployment = 22%. Spain = 53% iirc.
UK adult unemployment = 8%. Spain = 20% again iirc.

 

[kavenism]

I'm a public sector medical statistician. I've spent the last twenty years exposing the pharmaceutical industry's penchant for harming people for profit. I am certain that we'd be a lot better off without an all-powerful industry that spends far, far more on marketing than it does on R&D.

I am saying that you cannot shrug off the conflicts of interest produced by capitalism by defending the technology regardless of the framework within which it is implemented. The profit motive creates irreconcilable conflicts of interest which diverts things which could do great good into the hands of those who will use them to do great harm, if that's what it takes to fill their pockets with money.

And no, I don't think we need them to have access to any benefits the technology might provide. They would not exist without the publicly-funded science that created their product in the first place.

I think we might be misunderstanding each other. You see the problem with capitalism, I agree. But I don't see the problem with drugs per se, no more than I see the problem with Patisserie Valerie, that resulted in my friend getting sacked today during a "trial shift", to have something to do with Iced Buns.

 

[ymu]

I think we might be misunderstanding each other. You see the problem with capitalism, I agree. But I don't see the problem with drugs per se, no more than I see the problem with Patisserie Valerie, that resulted in my friend getting sacked today during a "trial shift", to have something to do with Iced Buns.

I am pointing out that the problem with your argument is that it relies on ignoring that capitalism exists.

 

[xes]

Any live updates on this, can't get live streams working on phone

 

[shaman75]

here's me pics

more at: http://entoptika.co.uk/occupy-may

 

[purenarcotic]

I wonder how many of the coppers policing the protest had been out on the march.

I'm feeling a wee sense of irony kicking in.

 

[shaman75]

police have packed up and gone for tea and donuts in their vans apparently

 

[shaman75]

Lot of obscured numbers today too

 

[grit]

UK youth unemployment = 22%. Spain = 53% iirc.
UK adult unemployment = 8%. Spain = 20% again iirc.

Yeah those numbers are about what I've seen, its on a completely different scale.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

 

[rekil]

Am I missing something here or have the Dubs mastered a level of irony previously unseen in history?

Our paralooper brigade doing us proud. This tops allowing known neo-nazis to knock around at dame street.

 

[Col_Buendia]

Our paralooper brigade doing us proud. This tops allowing known neo-nazis to knock around at dame street.

Fair play. But I can't wait to hear what Ian Bone will have to say about the "it doesn't matter how many properties they've got in their portfolio" line...

 

[bluestreak]

I think what they say that they want is irrelevant - the fact that there is no process that has decided this for me/us is more fuckwitted.

i agree. i washed my hands of occupy despite having been part of them, because really it's a bunch of middle class liberal hippies and the odd conspiraloon shouting everybody else down and dominating all attempts to guide the movement in a genuinely democratic way. the much vaunted general assemblies are really only good for trolls and egotists, and it's become a pseudo-situationist version of a flashmob. maybe i'll start the Provisional Occupy movement. see if that's any more successful.

 

[Chrispeptide]

here's me pics

more at: http://entoptika.co.uk/occupy-may

Mmmmm.... like the first pic! Wonder if she would let me munch her rug!

 

[frogwoman]

 

[shaman75]

That 'manifesto' seems to be from here: http://www.peoplesassemblies.org/2012/05/may-12th-globalmay-statement/

 

[ymu]

Mmmmm.... like the first pic! Wonder if she would let me munch her rug!

Fuck off you despicable cunt.

 

[xes]

Media ain't touching this protest. I know it's a bit lack luster, but there should be something on it. I guess there's not been enough trouble to discount the movement for the scum to try and make everyone look evil.

 

[shaman75]

I really must go read the police guidance again, as i seem to have missed this arrest technique.

http://occupylondon.org.uk/archives/8408

 

[Artaxerxes]

I do love reading the COLP alerts at work

There are 4-5 "Occupy" demonstrators in the Paternoster area, police will be with and monitoring them until dipsersal, thank you.

Call the riot police!