New rail speed record ....

[Cobbles]

it can be 15 minutes if you prepared to buy an expensive ticket.

Just like business class by air in terms of hanging around time, then.

 

[bigbry]

It all depends how the Evian is transported, doesn't it? Train, lorry or airfreight? I don't support in any way the current excessive transportation of foodstuffs around the globe. The cost of a bottle of Evian presumably already includes a certain portion which is attributable to transport costs, and therefore related to fuel tax (if it's come by lorry for example). So the treasury is already gaining something from each bottle of Evian, unless it has come by air. Perhaps diesel fuel for road vehicles should be taxed more.

It's all about the "polluter pays" principle in the end.

My brother used to work for Danone (the parent company) - it comes in by the train load through the Channel Tunnel.

 

[bigbry]

Ahh, the M6 Toll road...drove along that on the way to and back from Scotland over the bank hol...what a dreamy piece of road...empty, smooth, quiet, no cameras or old bill to take away the fun of driving at 120mph...TBH I'd be happy if most road traffic went to the railways and the motorways were all like that...or indeed, like the road system in France, which is equally empty, well maintained...and the péages are even emptier than the M6 (and about 6 times as expensive...)

I use the French motorways and the M6 Toll reasonably frequently and this statement is not true - the French motorways are cheaper mile for mile (or as I should say kilometre for kilometre) than the M6 Toll.

 

[T & P]

Just like business class by air in terms of hanging around time, then.

Only the time needed to walk from the door of the terminal to the gate is invariably a lot longer than the from-station-door-to-platform time.

A lot longer.

 

[Cobbles]

Only the time needed to walk from the door of the terminal to the gate is invariably a lot longer than the from-station-door-to-platform time.

A lot longer.

You've clearly never visited the nether reaches of Waverley or Leeds stations....

You need a month's supplies and a decent suite of native bearers to traverse either of these compared with the routes through airports like Edinburgh, Leeds Bradford and Southampton.

I never use front door at Heathrow T1 as I usually get there by Heathrow Express whose escalator takes you right to departures which is no more than 100 yds to the Edinburgh gates (although Dublin departures are akin to platform 14 at Waverley).

 

[T & P]

Even in the best case scenario still takes a lot longer from arrival to terminal to gate, as you should know.

By the time you clear security you could have walked to the furthest away platform in the biggest and busiest train station in the world with plenty time to spare.

No matter how you spin it, the process of arriving at an airport, clearing security and getting to your gate, even if you have printed your own boarding card at home, is infinitely worse and lengthier than getting to a train.

But then anyone who has ever used both methods of transport knows this.

 

[Spymaster]

No matter how you spin it, the process of arriving at an airport, clearing security and getting to your gate, even if you have printed your own boarding card at home, is infinitely worse and lengthier than getting to a train.

I'd disagree T&P. Below is an account of mine from a previous thread about this.

I left home in NW London at 9am and was dropped outside T1 at Heathrow just before 10am. I had already checked-in online so only needed to enter my credit card details into a machine in the terminal, get the ticket and go through security. It was as simple as buying a tube ticket. I was through security and sitting at the gate with a coffee by 10.30am.

We departed on time at 11am. The aircraft, a BMI Airbus A320 was spotless, replete with big, comfortable (leg room fine, I'm 6ft tall), leather seats throughout but was unfortunately only half full .

I've made this flight a few times but yesterday was fabulous. When I've done this route before it's either been cloudy or I've had an aisle seat. Yesterday was beautifully clear and cloudless and I had a window seat. Of course the entire flight is overland so there's something to look at all the time. Interesting how quickly the Pennines start and finish and being able to see England from coast to coast from 36000ft (from the Solway Firth and Carlisle on the port side, to the North Sea at Newcastle/South Shields out to starboard). Seconds after that you're over Scotland and the change of scenery is dramatic and immediate.

England's pretty flat ....... and Scotland's all lumpy! Constant rolling mountainous stuff, with the occasional loch nestling down there atwixt glen and ........ something!, it's a puffed, silk quilt.

A lovely flight, just too short.

We landed at Edinburgh just before midday and I was in a taxi at 12.10. There are no formalities on domestic flights and unless you have hold luggage (which I didn't) you simply walk off the plane and straight out of the terminal.

My first meeting was at 1pm on Earl Grey Street and I was 25 minutes early so I took a walk around the roads below the castle.

My second was over lunch at a nice restaurant called Amber which ocupies a higher wing of the Scottish Whisky Heritage Centre on Castle Hill adjacent to the castle itself. I had "Scottish tapas" and "haggis 'n neeps" in a whisky sauce. Outstanding.

I had a wander around Edinburgh from 4pm to 5pm before getting a taxi back to the airport for my 6.30pm flight home.

This time there was a scary looking queue at security as unlike Heathrow, at Edinburgh you go through the same security control for domestic flights as for international flights. I was, however, through it and at the gate in about 15 mins.

The flight left more or less on time (6.38pm), and I was in a window seat again but unfortunately surrounded by a hen party from Dundee. Actually, whilst pissed up, they weren't too bad and I spent the flight answering questions and advising on where to stay and what to do in London.

We landed at 7.35pm and I was picked up outside and home by 8.30pm.

A highly productive and most enjoyable day that would have been impossible had I not flown.

The air travel cost was £74 return

 

[Cobbles]

Even in the best case scenario still takes a lot longer from arrival to terminal to gate, as you should know.

By the time you clear security you could have walked to the furthest away platform in the biggest and busiest train station in the world with plenty time to spare.

No matter how you spin it, the process of arriving at an airport, clearing security and getting to your gate, even if you have printed your own boarding card at home, is infinitely worse and lengthier than getting to a train.

But then anyone who has ever used both methods of transport knows this.

Kings cross (once you've trekked miles through underground corridors from where the various Tube lines spew out their loads) is the least inconvenient station as the platforms are reasonably handy and as there's no barriers, there's no need to queue with the great unwashed to buy a ticket - Edinburgh's the same. You need to buy a ticket at Leeds before the barrier - stupid as any faredodging scum will be rooted out by on-train staffso itsjust an inconvenience and huge time waster as most of the machines seem to be empty half the time (presumably due to some Kafkaesque dispute in demarcation between grumpy-ticket-dispensing versus ticket-machine-filling-is-a-skilled-job-requiring-extensive-training staff).

If I want to get a cheapo ticket then I have to use one of these dreaded devices or queue for ages - only Leeds actually seems to have a priority zone for 1st class passengers to buy tickets (but then Leeds Bradford airport also has a fast track through security for business class passengers as well).

 

[WouldBe]

dropped outside T1 at Heathrow just before 10am. I had already checked-in online so only needed to enter my credit card details into a machine in the terminal, get the ticket and go through security. It was as simple as buying a tube ticket. I was through security and sitting at the gate with a coffee by 10.30am.

So it took you 30 minutes to get from front door of airport to the gate. It would be a huuuuuge train station to take 30 minutes to get from front door to your platform.

 

[Cobbles]

So it took you 30 minutes to get from front door of airport to the gate. It would be a huuuuuge train station to take 30 minutes to get from front door to your platform.

With a decent headwind and a short queue, you can just about get from the entrance of Leeds railway station to the barrier in half an hour as you can't venture ay further without a ticket. The thing that adds to the time in an airport is security.

Of course, that's presumably not a problem with trains - nobody would ever want to carry a weapon onto or put a bomb on a train would they?

 

[Spymaster]

It would be a huuuuuge train station to take 30 minutes to get from front door to your platform.

Not if you have to pick up a ticket from the out of order machines or a clueless fuckwit behind a screen, and that 30 minutes included a piss-stop and buying the coffee and a newspaper. My point though is that the entire trip was done in a day. Absolutely impossible by train (assuming that I'd happily pay double for the privilege).

 

[WouldBe]

With a decent headwind and a short queue, you can just about get from the entrance of Leeds railway station to the barrier in half an hour as you can't venture ay further without a ticket. The thing that adds to the time in an airport is security.

I've not been to Leeds station so can't comment on that one but I've never had problems getting round large stations even Manchester pic platform 13 to platform 1 is only a couple of minutes.

Not everyone has the benefit of living in a large city. Where I live it's a 5 minute walk to the train station so easy to pick up a ticket days in advance while it's a 1 hour drive to the nearest airport.

 

[Negativland]

It takes about 3-4 minutes to walk from the entrance of Leeds station to the far end.

 

[teuchter]

If I want to get a cheapo ticket then I have to use one of these dreaded devices or queue for ages

have you heard of the internet?

The thing you use to buy all your plane tickets?

Buy them on there and they'll post them to you.

Or if there's not time, you can collect it from a fasticket machine. I've rarely had any problems with them.

That said, it would be a big improvement if we could have genuine internet tickets. You can do it in germany. You just get a code which the inspector can check against a central database on the train. Ideally you would have a system where it's just sent direct to your mobile phone ... I'm sure that'll come eventually.

 

[Cobbles]

It takes about 3-4 minutes to walk from the entrance of Leeds station to the far end.

IF you already have a ticket......

 

[T & P]

With a decent headwind and a short queue, you can just about get from the entrance of Leeds railway station to the barrier in half an hour as you can't venture ay further without a ticket. The thing that adds to the time in an airport is security.

Do you really want to compare square footage of trains stations vs. airports? I don't think you would...

I doubt there is a resource online to tell us but I am willing to bet the average distance in metres between the entrance to Leeds station and the platforms is considerably shorter than the average distance between the entrance of any given airport and the gates.

Frankly is ludicrous for anyone to suggest otherwise.

 

[Spymaster]

I doubt there is a resource online to tell us but I am willing to bet the average distance in metres between the entrance to Leeds station and the platforms is considerably shorter than the average distance between the entrance of any given airport and the gates.

The distance isn't the point though is it? More relevant is the incompetence than one has to overcome whilst traversing it.

From time, cost, sanity and sanitary perspectives, between London and Edinburgh, the plane knocks train travel into a cocked hat.

Frankly it is ludicrous for anyone to suggest otherwise.

 

[Cobbles]

have you heard of the internet?.

Clearly...

The thing you use to buy all your plane tickets?

Indeed - the service for plane tickets usually allows one to harness that sterling piece of 20th Century technology - the PC driven printer (clearly unheard of by the rail companies).

Buy them on there and they'll post them to you.

Hardly an option for travel the same/following day....

Or if there's not time, you can collect it from a fasticket machine. I've rarely had any problems with them.

I've had plenty and why oh why do they demand a code that has to be written down - that's so 19th Century - just like the speed at which trains travel - except in 1897 (a) there were functional and clean toilets on trains and (b) a really decent dining car on most long haul services.

 

[T & P]

The distance isn't the point though is it? More relevant is the incompetence than one has to overcome whilst traversing it.

From time, cost, sanity and sanitary perspectives, between London and Edinburgh, the plane knocks train travel into a cocked hat.

Frankly it is ludicrous for anyone to suggest otherwise.

Oh at the moment it does and I regularly complain in this and other forums about how shite the British rail network is at the moment.

But this thread originated by the French high speed record. And the argument I was putting forward is that a true high speed service a la TGV with properly mantained and kept stations and rolling stock would beat the shit out of the plane not only between London and Scotland (and all stations in between) but also between the likes of Manchester or even Glasgow/Edinburg and Paris and Brussels.

When people start suggesting it takes half an hour to get from the entrace of a station to the platform barrier you know they're getting desperate.

Half an hour (and considerably more) is what it takes to get from arriving at the airport to reaching the boarding gate. Even with the pre-printed boarding cards and fast track security clearance the immense majority of air travellers don't have access to.

A proper high speed rail network= infinitely better and easier than air travel for up to 400+ miles.

 

[Spymaster]

A proper high speed rail network= infinitely better and easier than air travel for up to 400+ miles.

Oh aye, quite possibly, and when it's available people will probably use it. However in the UK we're about as close to a proper railway system as we are to teleportation.

Until rail travel is as cost efficient, fast, stress-free and reliable as flying people will use aircraft.

 

[T & P]

Yeah sadly I agree with that.

Is no coincidence that the London to Paris route is dominated by train travel (due to having a decent high speed service that will be better in a few months as well) and yet in the London to Scotland route air passengers outnumber train passengers by 4 to 1.

 

[Spymaster]

Is no coincidence that the London to Paris route is dominated by train travel (due to having a decent high speed service that will be better in a few months as well) and yet in the London to Scotland route air passengers outnumber train passengers by 4 to 1.

Quite. That's a perfect example isn't it? Few people would choose to fly between Paris, Brussells, Lille etc and London.

Eurostar genuinely has it cracked, it's fast, reliable, clean, comfortable and whilst generally more expensive than flying is still a no-brainer for close continental travel.

See, the French know how to run a railway system.

 

[Cobbles]

A proper high speed rail network= infinitely better and easier than air travel for up to 400+ miles.

Until such time as such a thing exists in the Uk (presumably about 7 minutes before hell freezes over), I'll forsake our 19th Century rail network and fly.