I became a muslim last night

[IC3D]

I simply meant that if they took their oath of poverty, chastity and dedication to scripture seriously they would have found themselves at odds with the Vatican

If politicians did this life would be better for everyone . I think religion formed partly because people were seen as corruptible by nature and a set of principles was made for people to rule by, then the proles become unhappy with this system and contributed to the formation of democratic government which has led us now to capitalism where we see the individual as the centre of society, looking at it like this it is easy to see the appeal of religion.

 

[revol68]

Cheers revol.

Well I can't speak with any great authority on the subject, but I was under the impression that they've fallen out with the Vatican pretty regularly.

*Has watched The Mission *

Yeah they have fallen out with the Vatican many times, which to me is the times when they have taken themselves seriously, or rather taken their oaths and principles more seriously than many including the Vatican reckon they should.

I was only trying to give a pithy response regarding the transgressive potentiality of the law taking the law seriously, like the cop in a police corruption movie who finds himself an outlaw by following the letter of the law and not overlooking the little details that facilitate it's 'normal' functioning.

 

[DotCommunist]

If politicians did this life would be better for everyone . I think religion formed partly because people were seen as corruptible by nature and a set of principles was made for people to rule by, then the proles become unhappy with this system and contributed to the formation of democratic government which has led us now to capitalism where we see the individual as the centre of society, looking at it like this it is easy to see the appeal of religion.

I think this is totally wrong.

Religion, in it's oldest forms was characterised by animism, nature and ancestor worship. It grew, imo, from the realisation of mortality and self awareness. It was and is quite often a way to answer the big questions about life, death and everything inbetween.

This does of course exclude the power games some use it to play. But it's appeal has little to do with correcting mans imperfections, at least not before abrahmic religions (or indeed, some variants of eastern religions)

 

[kyser_soze]

I think religion formed partly because people were seen as corruptible by nature and a set of principles was made for people to rule by, then the proles become unhappy with this system and contributed to the formation of democratic government which has led us now to capitalism where we see the individual as the centre of society, looking at it like this it is easy to see the appeal of religion.

Wut? Eh? The innate corruption of man is a Judeo-Xtian thing - original sin and all that.

Religion arose as a form of primitive philosophy & science - offering explanations for how the world worked, and how human beings fitted in to it, explanations for human behaviour etc etc

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hold on, stop the bus, WHAT??

Judaism and Islam both require male converts to have their foreskins hacked off with blunt instruments.

 

[IC3D]

I think this is totally wrong.

Religion, in it's oldest forms was characterised by animism, nature and ancestor worship. It grew, imo, from the realisation of mortality and self awareness. It was and is quite often a way to answer the big questions about life, death and everything inbetween.

This does of course exclude the power games some use it to play. But it's appeal has little to do with correcting mans imperfections, at least not before abrahmic religions (or indeed, some variants of eastern religions)

I meant Balsamic religions, as the thread is about Islam I thought it was implied

 

[isitme]

this idea that thought has stopped or indeed anyone thinks it has stopped is bollocks

i don't even think that the idea is worth entertaining for debate tbh. it's an idea that appears every now and then, and has throughout history

the fact that max (and probably lots of people) are prepared to convert nominally to a religion for personal reasons is much more progressive than absolutist rationalism.

 

[DotCommunist]

I meant Balsamic religions, as the thread is about Islam I thought it was implied

They grow from the same roots and serve the same functions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I converted.
It's actually pretty good to do. Even if the Op did it for family reasons, it's worth taking up some of the traits of Islam.
The not boozing is a cracker to start with. I used to be a bit os a piss artist. Stopping was a cracking move. No hangovers and I feel great all the time.
No way would I go back to it.
Come Eid, join in the festivities but make sure you go to a mosque first thing. You will find out why when you have experienced it first time. Go a couple of times before and get someone to show you how to prey so it's not a total mystery when you go.

Freudian slip?

 

[isitme]

Freudian slip?

 

[IC3D]

 

[Ralph Masters]

this idea that thought has stopped or indeed anyone thinks it has stopped is bollocks

i don't even think that the idea is worth entertaining for debate tbh. it's an idea that appears every now and then, and has throughout history

the fact that max (and probably lots of people) are prepared to convert nominally to a religion for personal reasons is much more progressive than absolutist rationalism.

It's a bit like going down the conservative club because they sell cheap drinks, or becoming a catholic because of the chances of meeting a girl. Of course really becoming a catholic, conservative or muslim is very different, but unfortunately, from a distance it all looks much the same. Setting an example is dead?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I wouldn't marry her then and the kids would be brought up with religion over my corpse.

Sounds reasonable to me, if a little gruesome for the children, being raised over your decaying dwarven husk.

 

[revol68]

this idea that thought has stopped or indeed anyone thinks it has stopped is bollocks

i don't even think that the idea is worth entertaining for debate tbh. it's an idea that appears every now and then, and has throughout history

the fact that max (and probably lots of people) are prepared to convert nominally to a religion for personal reasons is much more progressive than absolutist rationalism.

who suggested thought has stopped?

I'm glad you think it's more progressive that people convert to world views shrouded in sexism, homophobia, irrationalism and arbitrary rules out of something so pathetic as 'convenience' than those people who think things through critically and consistently and reject such reactionary shit and unthinking behaviour as unfit for those with mental faculties.

I do have one question though, would you convert to Islam and if not why not?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thus speaks the cosmo jew.

He reads "Cosmopolitan"?

The sick fuck!

 

[isitme]

It's a bit like going down the conservative club because they sell cheap drinks, or becoming a catholic because of the chances of meeting a girl. Of course really becoming a catholic, conservative or muslim is very different, but unfortunately, from a distance it all looks much the same. Setting an example is dead?

i think setting an example by being good to people and doing your best etc is more important than setting an example by dissing institutions

i think max converting to do right by his wife and son is a better example than revol sitting there typing in a really angry way about it

 

[revol68]

Sounds reasonable to me, if a little gruesome for the children, being raised over your decaying dwarven husk.

christ aren't you hilarious, still I'd fuck off if I were you because despite me being the shortarse most of it will be going over your head.

 

[isitme]

who suggested thought has stopped?

I'm glad you think it's more progressive that people convert to world views shrouded in sexism, homophobia, irrationalism and arbitrary rules out of something so pathetic as 'convenience' than those people who think things through critically and consistently and reject such reactionary shit and unthinking behaviour as unfit for those with mental faculties.

I do have one question though, would you convert to Islam and if not why not?

he isn't converting to a world view tho, he's applying his world view to his current situation

i can't possibly say what i would do in that situation. if i had a family with a muslim girl and converting would be the best thing for my family i would probably put that before my own prejudices about the religion but i have no experience of muslims beyond the odd person i've chatted to briefly that i know of so i don't know....

 

[revol68]

i think setting an example by being good to people and doing your best etc is more important than setting an example by dissing institutions

i think max converting to do right by his wife and son is a better example than revol sitting there typing in a really angry way about it

Yes because 'being good' and 'doing your best' are such obvious things aren't they, only some sort of crazed rationalist fundamentalist would dare to ponder the specifics of such things.

I mean it's obvious that Max is 'doing right' by his wife and son by converting to a religion shrouded in sexism, homophobia and a general reactionary attitude to authority.

And at least my ranting about this shit doesn't involve cutting off foreskins as a barbaric ritual to an invisible superhero.

 

[isitme]

Yes because 'being good' and 'doing your best' are such obvious things aren't they, only some sort of crazed rationalist fundamentalist would dare to ponder the specifics of such things.

I mean it's obvious that Max is 'doing right' by his wife and son by converting to a religion shrouded in sexism, homophobia and a general reactionary attitude to authority.

And at least my ranting about this shit doesn't involve cutting off foreskins as a barbaric ritual to an invisible superhero.

well you obviously know better than him....

 

[revol68]

he isn't converting to a world view tho, he's applying his world view to his current situation

i can't possibly say what i would do in that situation. if i had a family with a muslim girl and converting would be the best thing for my family i would probably put that before my own prejudices about the religion but i have no experience of muslims beyond the odd person i've chatted to briefly that i know of so i don't know....

so you think Islam is defined by what this or that muslim does and that's how it should be judged, not on the actual articles of faith or theology?

hmmm that's a bit mental, it would be like me converting to catholicism (actually as lapsed catholic I would be simply taking it up again) based on the fact I know quite a few gay people who still go to mass, a few divorcees and a fuck lot of catholics who masturbate, use contraception and generally compartmentalise their faith whilst they get on with living.

I mean it would just be pure bigotry for me to judge Roman Catholicism on it's actual teachings about women, gays, contraception and a whole host of other issues.

 

[ViolentPanda]

christ aren't you hilarious, still I'd fuck off if I were you because despite me being the shortarse most of it will be going over your head.

Yep, of course it will, if it makes you feel more manly and relevant to believe so.

 

[revol68]

well you obviously know better than him....

You never answered my question, would you convert to Islam and if not why not?

 

[ViolentPanda]

well you obviously know better than him....

And indeed, as always, better than everybody.

 

[kyser_soze]

rev, I can see you in 1968 being an angry young man with JPS and SdB...

 

[revol68]

Yep, of course it will, if it makes you feel more manly and relevant to believe so.

you have 42,000 posts on this board, that is nearly 4 times as many as me in just under a year more and yet you think my 'masculinity' hinges upon posting here?

 

[kyser_soze]

so you think Islam is defined by what this or that muslim does and that's how it should be judged, not on the actual articles of faith or theology?

Isn't that how all things should ultimately be judged? By their effects?

 

[ViolentPanda]

rev, I can see you in 1968 being an angry young man with JPS and SdB...

Poor fucker.

 

[ViolentPanda]

you have 42,000 posts on this board, that is nearly 4 times as many as me in just under a year more and yet you think my 'masculinity' hinges upon posting here?

No dear, I was being mildly humourous. I keep forgetting that your sense of humour is vestigial.

 

[revol68]

And indeed, as always, better than everybody.

This is typical of what I was talking about, every disagreement and political argument gets reduced to a pathetic whinge of "so you think you know better than me".


Of course I think I know better than you and you likewise think you know better than me, that is why people have fucking debates and discussions.

I mean I could equally turn round to you and say 'you think you know better than me', but it would be meaningless tripe which only serves to allow one person to play a righteous victim and adds nothing to the discussion. Unfortunately it's all too common in an age where every wanker thinks that being told they are wrong is some sort of infringement on their human right to live in an atomised bubble where there fluffy thoughts are protected from anything approaching criticism.