"Horseshoe Theory" - is it crap?

[NoXion]

RationWiki article

First, my uninformed opinion - Horseshoe Theory is a bunch of unmitigated Golden Mean horseshit, the sort of pseudo-intellectual nonsense that smug liberal types like to hold up as the supposed "evidence" for their reasonableness.

A more considered response of my mine is that it conflates various strains of authoritarianism and the more complex question of ideology, and in so doing attempts to establish a dichotomy between capitalism/bourgeois democracy and all those scary totalitarian regimes.

I'm not well-read on this sort of topic, but this idea stinks. What do the rest of you think? Got any good articles on subject?

 

[DrRingDing]

It's bollocks cooked up by some numpty who thinks politics is a 2 dimensional scale.

 

[NoXion]

It's bollocks cooked up by some numpty who thinks politics is a 2 dimensional scale.

I did think of mentioning that angle, and the horseshoe could be flipped to fit an additional authoritarian/libertarian axis. But I'm somewhat wary that even that marginally more nuanced approach to mapping politics is itself overly simplistic. Politics is a social phenomenon and as such is at least multi-dimensional. Plus I suspect there are limitations to a quantitative (as opposed to qualitative) approach to political theory.

 

[Idris2002]

Ask yourself this, could the Third Reich have produced a figure equivalent to Gorbachev, if it had survived?

 

[DotCommunist]

oh so this is the 'intellectual' backing for that old communists=fascists trope beloved of american headbangers

 

[NoXion]

Ask yourself this, could the Third Reich have produced a figure equivalent to Gorbachev, if it had survived?

Interesting question. I don't think I know enough about counterfactual history to give a detailed answer, but I somehow suspect that a state that perpetrated an industrial-scale genocide unlike any seen before (or since?) would be liable to be even more dysfunctional and quite possibly less stable than the Soviet Union.

 

[kabbes]

Theories make predictions.

What prediction is this theory making?

 

[NoXion]

Theories make predictions.

What prediction is this theory making?

None that I can see. It all seems to be based on observations.

 

[kabbes]

Yeah, exactly. It's a description at best. But really it's just a diagram. It has precisely zero application.

 

[butchersapron]

rationalwiki? Really?

 

[NoXion]

rationalwiki? Really?

*shrugs* Why not? I had a look at the Wikipedia entry but it was rather short. The length of the Rationalwiki article probably says more about them than the "theory", though.

 

[butchersapron]

*shrugs* Why not? I had a look at the Wikipedia entry but it was rather short. The length of the Rationalwiki article probably says more about them than the "theory", though.

Because of what it is and represents.

edit: and it says something about your sources and you. There's just no need to use them.

 

[NoXion]

Because of what it is and represents.

Horseshoe theory or Rationalwiki?

 

[Idris2002]

rationalwiki? Really?

OK, what's the beef with rationalwiki?

It's a bit of fun, has some interesting pages, and the eejitry-to-sense ratio seems pretty low to me (someone will now tell me I'm using "ratio" wrong, but stet).

 

[butchersapron]

Horseshoe theory or Rationalwiki?

The site and it's content.

 

[butchersapron]

OK, what's the beef with rationalwiki?

It's a bit of fun, has some interesting pages, and the eejitry-to-sense ratio seems pretty low to me (someone will now tell me I'm using "ratio" wrong, but stet).

The site and it's content.

 

[butchersapron]

Rational - that's a word needing reclaiming.

 

[Idris2002]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[butchersapron]

Can't we all just get along?

No

 

[NoXion]

Because of what it is and represents.

edit: and it says something about your sources and you. There's just no need to use them.

What does it say exactly? Note that I fundamentally disagree with horseshoe theory (if that wasn't obvious enough from the OP) and part of the reason I chose to link to the Rationalwiki article was because it was a better example of why I think it's liberal crap than the Wikipedia entry.

 

[butchersapron]

What does it say exactly? Note that I fundamentally disagree with horseshoe theory (if that wasn't obvious enough from the OP) and part of the reason I chose to link to the Rationalwiki article was because it was a better example of why I think it's liberal crap than the Wikipedia entry.

Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism has frequently been described as the "Marxism of the Right," mainly by its critics.[18] For example, Whittaker Chambers, in his review[19] of Atlas Shrugged, suggested that Rand's materialism, despite all protests to the contrary, was functionally almost identical to the Marxism that she so despised. The similar personality cults that have been developed around each of them has also caused parallels to be made between Karl Marx and Ayn Rand — both are small political groups that base themselves around a largely discredited economic philosopher (or a shitty novelist, in Rand's case) who is seen as a divine authority (or would be, if they weren't both staunch atheists) on how life works and what the ideal moral system would be like.

This is from the main content.

 

[Idris2002]

No

 

[ViolentPanda]

RationWiki article

First, my uninformed opinion - Horseshoe Theory is a bunch of unmitigated Golden Mean horseshit, the sort of pseudo-intellectual nonsense that smug liberal types like to hold up as the supposed "evidence" for their reasonableness.

A more considered response of my mine is that it conflates various strains of authoritarianism and the more complex question of ideology, and in so doing attempts to establish a dichotomy between capitalism/bourgeois democracy and all those scary totalitarian regimes.

I'm not well-read on this sort of topic, but this idea stinks. What do the rest of you think? Got any good articles on subject?

It's a theory, and like other pol-sci theories, it has utility to those who use it. That said, it relies mostly on "commonsense" assumptions about politics to give it substance, rather than relying on detailed analysis.
And of course it serves a purpose and sets up a dichotomy: ALL political theory does! This is just rather more transparent in doing so than some other forms.

 

[NoXion]

This is from the main content.

Yep, looks like liberal crap to me. Problems that I can see with it are: Marxism is (or rather perhaps should be) materialist while Objectivism is idealist, Marx didn't advocate any moral system that I'm aware of, and aren't personality cults centred around living individuals (I don't think the virtual canonisation of Marx long after his death by Soviet-style regimes counts)?

That's just one paragraph. I'm quite aware that Rationalwiki is terrible when it comes to politics.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, looks like liberal crap to me. Problems that I can see with it are: Marxism is (or rather perhaps should be) materialist while Objectivism is idealist, Marx didn't advocate any moral system that I'm aware of, and aren't personality cults centred around living individuals (I don't think the virtual canonisation of Marx long after his death by Soviet-style regimes counts)?

That's just one paragraph. I'm quite aware that Rationalwiki is terrible when it comes to politics.

But the link you provided is to politics - and defended that use - but what is outside of politics?

 

[NoXion]

But the link you provided is to politics - and defended that use - but what is outside of politics?

Tell you what, if you link me to a good lefty/Marxist blog or wiki that deals in detail with topics such as the paranormal and pseudo-science, I promise I'll check it out because such a site could be really interesting. It would be good to get such a perspective on such subjects.

In the meantime, I'll continue reading Rationalwiki while keeping its US-liberal biases in mind, especially when articles like the one in the OP make them so transparent. Somehow I doubt you would recommend Wikipedia as a "neutral" alternative.

 

[butchersapron]

jabroni

 

[butchersapron]

There, i said it.

 

[Spymaster]

pepperoni

 

[NoXion]

jabroni

There, i said it.

I'm stumped.