Fined for returning a Zipcar to its designated spot in a restricted street- how is this right?

[T & P]

I couple of weeks ago I hired a Zipcar that lives on Burbage Road in Dulwich. Said road has part time restrictions in the morning and mid afternoon. I rented the car between 12 pm and 4 pm and nowhere on the Zipcar app was there any warning about not being able to drive the car on that street during the restricted times.

I returned the car just before 3.30 pm, and was rather bemused to receive a few days ago an email informing me that I'd been charged £80 for a PCN issued by Southwark council for entering a street during restricted times, plus Zipcar's administration fee. They included the original PCN letter which confirmed the facts.

I immediately wrote to Zipcar to point out that surely, any car that lives in a LTN or otherwise restricted street must be treated as a resident car and granted an exemption, and therefore it's either Southwark Council's fault or more likely Zipcar's own fault for not registering the car. And that in the unfathomable case that one is not allowed to use club car vehicles that reside in restricted areas, Zipcar should not have let me hire the car for the times of the day in question, because how the fuck is one supposed to return the car without incurring a fine?

Their response has arrived and reads like a template whereby nobody has had a proper look. I can't even contest the fine because Zipcar has already paid it. I've written to Southwark's Customer Services but don't hold much hope. Ultimately, I just can't believe a council-approved club car that lives inside a restricted area would not be exempted from said restrictions. Am I missing something here?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

i'm not expert in this, and i'm not going to start on the merits or otherwise of LTN's, but this seems to be southwark council's page that mentions burbage road. looks like it's a restriction round school times.

but from reading that, and looking at street view (turney road / burbage road junction) it looks like you can get in to the south end of burbage road, but only from the north end, effectively making it (and some other streets) one-way at certain times, rather than a complete ban on any vehicle moving on those streets at those times.

street view seems not to have done the dulwich village roundabout end of burbage road, so i can't say what signs there might be there.

it doesn't seem to say anything about exemptions for residents, just something about exemptions for blue badge holders.

(or have i misunderstood something or is street view not up to date?)

 

[T & P]

i'm not expert in this, and i'm not going to start on the merits or otherwise of LTN's, but this seems to be southwark council's page that mentions burbage road. looks like it's a restriction round school times.

but from reading that, and looking at street view (turney road / burbage road junction) it looks like you can get in to the south end of burbage road, but only from the north end, effectively making it (and some other streets) one-way at certain times, rather than a complete ban on any vehicle moving on those streets at those times.

street view seems not to have done the dulwich village roundabout end of burbage road, so i can't say what signs there might be there.

it doesn't seem to say anything about exemptions for residents, just something about exemptions for blue badge holders.

(or have i misunderstood something or is street view not up to date?)

Christ, what a shitshow. The Zipcar space is literally eight metres away from the entrance to the road. How is travelling from the other end of the street less disruptive?

 

[ska invita]

Sounds really shit, you have my sympathies

The vipzan I regularly hire is parked opposite a school, and it's one of those ones where you're not allowed to drive on that school road on an hour window in the morning and when schools kick out.

I've not yet driven the van in those hours, I usually book it 10-2pm, but I am curious if there would be a fine if I did

 

[Spymaster]

I couple of weeks ago I hired a Zipcar that lives on Burbage Road in Dulwich. Said road has part time restrictions in the morning and mid afternoon. I rented the car between 12 pm and 4 pm and nowhere on the Zipcar app was there any warning about not being able to drive the car on that street during the restricted times.

I returned the car just before 3.30 pm, and was rather bemused to receive a few days ago an email informing me that I'd been charged £80 for a PCN issued by Southwark council for entering a street during restricted times, plus Zipcar's administration fee. They included the original PCN letter which confirmed the facts.

I immediately wrote to Zipcar to point out that surely, any car that lives in a LTN or otherwise restricted street must be treated as a resident car and granted an exemption, and therefore it's either Southwark Council's fault or more likely Zipcar's own fault for not registering the car. And that in the unfathomable case that one is not allowed to use club car vehicles that reside in restricted areas, Zipcar should not have let me hire the car for the times of the day in question, because how the fuck is one supposed to return the car without incurring a fine?

Their response has arrived and reads like a template whereby nobody has had a proper look. I can't even contest the fine because Zipcar has already paid it. I've written to Southwark's Customer Services but don't hold much hope. Ultimately, I just can't believe a council-approved club car that lives inside a restricted area would not be exempted from said restrictions. Am I missing something here?

Our cricket ground is on Turney Road, and half the the club have been caught out by the weird restrictions (which include turning in from Dulwich Village at certain times) that Southwark only put in last year, iirc. Nobody has successfully challenged it, that I'm aware of.

My sympathies but you're probably fucked.

 

[ska invita]

Dulwich Estate needs invading and liberating by tooled up Southwark councillors

 

[ska invita]

Iirc you cannot buy a can of beer in Dulwich village, only bottles, because Dulwich Estate are snobs and have made a 'law' banning them

 

[prunus]

Iirc you cannot buy a can of beer in Dulwich village, only bottles, because Dulwich Estate are snobs and have made a 'law' banning them

I don't think this is still the case, or has been for some time. I've been buying cans of beer in Dulwich Village for at least a decade or more.

 

[MickiQ]

If Zipcar have already paid the PCN on 'your' behalf then I suspect that means you've admitted you're at fault according to the council and it's now a contractual debt between you and Zipcar, it does seem rather silly but I have a feeling that you're pretty much stuffed with regards to paying it if you want to continue using Zipcar. Adding an admin fee on the top is a bit much though.
I suspect all we can offer you is sympathy.

 

[Santino]

Iirc you cannot buy a can of beer in Dulwich village, only bottles, because Dulwich Estate are snobs and have made a 'law' banning them

They're well out of date, you can get expensive cans of craft beer in Waitrose now.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I understand it took a long time before the Dulwich Estate would allow buses through, and initially, only little ones

 

[ska invita]

They're well out of date, you can get expensive cans of craft beer in Waitrose now.

There's no Waitrose in the Village... There's only a few small shops that fall in the jurisdiction. Ive not been there in a while now, one used to be called Nicolas iirc? And there was an oddbins

 

[ska invita]

I understand it took a long time before the Dulwich Estate would allow buses through, and initially, only little ones

P4 not much bigger

 

[T & P]

If Zipcar have already paid the PCN on 'your' behalf then I suspect that means you've admitted you're at fault according to the council and it's now a contractual debt between you and Zipcar, it does seem rather silly but I have a feeling that you're pretty much stuffed with regards to paying it if you want to continue using Zipcar. Adding an admin fee on the top is a bit much though.
I suspect all we can offer you is sympathy.

FWIW I’m perfectly happy to bite the bullet and pay if the PCN was issued correctly. But whereas I have no firsthand experience I had always assumed residents in restricted areas get an automatic exception, and frankly it’d extremely shortsighted of the Council not to extend that to car club vehicles (which they’re actively promoting on the Council’s website as a lower impact alternative to private car ownership).

If that is the case then clearly it goes down a paperwork error. If not there’s nothing I can do about it, though it is an extraordinarily stupid thing for Southwark to do.

 

[Spymaster]

I’d be looking for a refund from Zipcar rather than the council. As above, Southwark seem to be completely inflexible and unreasonable regarding that area and at the end of the day, it’s Zipcar who have paid them and charged you.

Appeal on the grounds that the car is was in an area where a charge applies at certain times and they didn’t tell you, thus making a fine all but inevitable. Also, Zipcar members are exempt from the congestion charge (something they boast quite loudly about), so it’s perfectly reasonable to assume other charges are similarly covered.

It’s a long shot but you won’t be the first to be caught out like this so Zipcar will likely have a policy on it, and there’s a small chance it’ll be to refund the customer if they make a fuss.

 

[Winot]

Do residents have an exemption or would you have got a fine even if you were a resident?

If the former then I agree it makes sense to exempt Zipcars that "live" there. If the latter then you'll have to suck it up I'm afraid.

 

[T & P]

Do residents have an exemption or would you have got a fine even if you were a resident?

If the former then I agree it makes sense to exempt Zipcars that "live" there. If the latter then you'll have to suck it up I'm afraid.

Yeah, that's what I've asked Southwark to clarify. I'd be surprised if residents weren't. At the very least, they must surely be allowed to access the street from the restricted end of the road if all they want to do is get home (instead of intending to travel through the street as a convenient route to somewhere else)? Fucking stupid otherwise.

As I mentioned before, the zipcar space is literally 8-10 metres from the entrance to the street, so if nothing else Southwark would be shooting themselves in the foot if they would rather everyone who rents that has to travel an extra half a mile to reach the parking space from the far end of the road, thus creating extra pollution and congestion, than to simply allow people to travel a few metres through the 'wrong' end to park the car.

 

[Winot]

Yeah, that's what I've asked Southwark to clarify. I'd be surprised if residents weren't. At the very least, they must surely be allowed to access the street from the restricted end of the road if all they want to do is get home (instead of intending to travel through the street as a convenient route to somewhere else)? Fucking stupid otherwise.

As I mentioned before, the zipcar space is literally 8-10 metres from the entrance to the street, so if nothing else Southwark would be shooting themselves in the foot if they would rather everyone who rents that has to travel an extra half a mile to reach the parking space from the far end of the road, thus creating extra pollution and congestion, than to simply allow people to travel a few metres through the 'wrong' end to park the car.

Well all LTNs have 'edge cases' which don't make much sense. They can only really be assessed in the round.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Appeal on the grounds that the car is was in an area where a charge applies at certain times and they didn’t tell you, thus making a fine all but inevitable. Also, Zipcar members are exempt from the congestion charge (something they boast quite loudly about), so it’s perfectly reasonable to assume other charges are similarly covered.

Again, without wishing to go in to the merits or otherwise of the whole scheme (and subject to the disclaimer i'm not a lawyer, police person or expert in traffic signs) -

But this isn't a charge to enter a zone like the congestion charge is, or a toll to pass through a particular point - the street is (in effect) a one-way street / no entry sign (unless you're a bus or whatever) at certain times of day. this charge appears to be a penalty charge for not complying with a street sign.

i used to live on a one-way street (that was a conventional one-way street that was all day every day, with a conventional 'no entry' sign at the other end) - and i don't think anyone ever thought that residents were allowed to drive through the no entry sign just because that was more convenient.

that is assuming the street signs at the roundabout are similar to those for other roads at the north end (roundabout end is not visible on street view) there's a street sign that says only certain types of vehicle are allowed through at certain times. those signs do not say anything about any exemptions for access, residents or anything like that. i agree there's potentially a lot to take in, especially if you then need to check your clock as well.

there may be a valid appeal if those signs weren't there, or were / are positioned in a way they aren't visible if approaching from certain directions, at the roundabout end - and there's usually a fair bit to think about / look out for at roundabouts especially if you don't use them regularly, and there's a lot to take in on those signs.

although the latter probably isn't a valid excuse in law. and it can be difficult proving that a street sign was not there, or obscured, or not in the right place, at some date in the past.

 

[Spymaster]

But this isn't a charge to enter a zone like the congestion charge is, or a toll to pass through a particular point - the street is (in effect) a one-way street / no entry sign (unless you're a bus or whatever) at certain times of day. this charge appears to be a penalty charge for not complying with a street sign.

i used to live on a one-way street (that was a conventional one-way street that was all day every day, with a conventional 'no entry' sign at the other end) - and i don't think anyone ever thought that residents were allowed to drive through the no entry sign just because that was more convenient.

Absolutely. That's why he's not going to get any change out of calling the car "a resident", and the status of the resident's of the area is immaterial as they can reasonably be expected to know the restrictions on their own streets. The main thrust of the challenge has to be that the car was parked in a restricted zone and Zipcar didn't tell him that to comply with their return policy there's a very high chance that he'll breach the restriction regs.

 

[teuchter]

It seems that T & P drove through some perfectly clear road signage, like this



And now wants to blame Zipcar for his inability to read road signs.

Or maybe he thinks a Zipcar is a bus, taxi or bicycle.

 

[Spymaster]

It seems that T & P drove through some perfectly clear road signage, like this

View attachment 411120

And now wants to blame Zipcar for his inability to read road signs.

Or maybe he thinks a Zipcar is a bus, taxi or bicycle.

I was wondering when you'd show up

 

[T & P]

It seems that T & P drove through some perfectly clear road signage, like this

View attachment 411120

And now wants to blame Zipcar for his inability to read road signs.

Or maybe he thinks a Zipcar is a bus, taxi or bicycle.

It seems that it is you who is unable to read (the thread).

 

[cupid_stunt]

I know blue signs are legal, but as the Highway Code says, 'signs with blue circles but no red border mostly give positive instruction', whereas, 'signs with red circles are mostly prohibitive', examples of better signage around these parts -





The red signs just seem more logical to me, makes me wonder why certain councils don't use them, it's as if they want to catch people out.

 

[planetgeli]

I know blue signs are legal, but as the Highway Code says, 'signs with blue circles but no red border mostly give positive instruction', whereas, 'signs with red circles are mostly prohibitive', examples of better signage around these parts -

View attachment 411121

View attachment 411123

The red signs just seem more logical to me, makes me wonder why certain councils don't use them, it's as if they want to catch people out.

The blue signs posted by teuchter are positive though. They are saying yes to bikes, buses and taxis.

 

[cupid_stunt]

The blue signs posted by teuchter are positive though. They are saying yes to bikes, buses and taxis.

I know, that's in my post.

 

[teuchter]

Given that we are dealing with car drivers and their typical level of attention, I do actually agree that the signage could be made easier to understand, unless there is some technical reason that a prohibitory version can't be used. There have been other objections to these (including, apparently, a successful appeal), and I myself know someone who was caught out by exactly that filter when visiting London a couple of years ago. But the argument is with Southwark council not Zipcar.

 

[prunus]

The blue signs posted by teuchter are positive though. They are saying yes to bikes, buses and taxis.

They’re more than just saying yes, they’re saying only this.

Red circle signs: none of this
Blue circle signs: only this
Red triangles: watch out for this.

 

[teuchter]

If this were to be used, it would then have to say underneath, "except buses and taxis", and then it would also have to say the time restrictions.

So, perhaps it was judged that this would provide a greater clutter of information than what they opted for.