Exploring Kent, North of the River...

[brogdale]

Yes, really....although I have to admit that modern types tend to insist that it's part of London Borough of Newham now.

Howsomedever...the Brogdales decided to go out East and have a bit of a wander around part of Section 15 of the Capital Ring largely as we've finally sussed out the pink readers that allow you to roam the network avoiding the Zone 1 fare zone. Added to which I really liked the idea such a multi-mode transport fest....train to Cronx, Overland up to Docklands, the DLR, bit of a wander round to the Ferry, the free cruise overseas to mooch round ("South") Woolwich, back through the foot tunnel and then a good gawp at the planes taking off. Perfik

Anyway, imagine my delight when, as a Man of Kent, I discovered that I'd been spending time in my own beloved county even when North of the river. Yeah, maybe everyone else already knew this, but to me this was news. Apparently North Woolwich, and other chunks of what is now South Newham/Docklands, were indeed part of Kent (Parish of Woolwich) until as recently as 1965!

The historical basis of this geographical anomaly, perhaps unsurprisingly, dates back to some mate of William the Bastard...

Hasted, in his History of Kent, suggested that the detached parts of Woolwich originated through a connection with Hamon dapife[steward], who in 1086 was sheriff of Kent and also held land at Woolwich and neighbouring places in that county. He cited no evidence, apart from Domesday Book, to support his theory; but he was almost certainly right.


In 1846-7 the detached parts of Woolwich were stated to comprise a total of 402 acres, out of 1,116 acres for the whole parish. The smaller and more westerly part, containing 68 acres, extended west for about half a mile from North Woolwich station. The larger detached part, of 334 acres, had a Thames frontage of about 1 1/2 mile, running west from Barking Creek, along Gallions Reach. The areas given in the first edition of the Ordnance Survey 0f 1870-82 were slightly larger: 70 acres for the western detached part (No 1) and 343 acres for the eastern (No 2).


There is little doubt that in 1086 Hamon dapifer held the whole of Woolwich including the detached parts. Woolwich is mentioned by that name only once in Domesday: Hamon held in demesne 63 acres "which belong to (pertinent in) Woolwich"; and which before the conquest of 1066 had been held by William the Falconer. Pertinent in is an appropriate phrase to describe a detached part, and the size of this tenement is remarkably similar to that of North Woolwich detached part No 1. Hamon also held, under Odo, Bishop of Bayeux, the manor of Eltham in Kent. This large manor undoubtedly included much of Woolwich, probably including detached part No 2.

Inspired by this revelation I had a bit of a hunt for map images that might support this Kentish claim to parts of historic Essex, and there were a few, including this one...

Walking back to "Kent" from (historic) Kent.

Looking back over to Kent from "Kent" with the cruise liner mid-journey.

 

[Sigmund Fraud]

Didn't know this - and I am a man of Kent (as opposed to a Kentish man - an important distinction to the cognoscenti).

 

[4to20characters]

As a Maid of Kent, this is really interesting. Had no idea Kent was north of the river too . And I want one of those badges!

 

[brogdale]

As a Maid of Kent, this is really interesting. Had no idea Kent was north of the river too . And I want one of those badges!

 

[Belushi]

I did know this, but only because I once lived in Woolwich (the proper south of the river bit) and remember reading something about it

 

[toblerone3]

Last time I did that section of the Capital Ring back in 2008 it was all blocked off and boarded up with developers' hoardings. Don't think any of that area around Gallions Point was accessible.

 

[brogdale]

Last time I did that section of the Capital Ring back in 2008 it was all blocked off and boarded up with developers' hoardings. Don't think any of that area around Gallions Point was accessible.

Well, based on yesterday's outing, I can confirm that the bit from Gallions Point DLR round to the ferry was all open, (if a little muddy and unloved in places), but the Cross-rail works have really blocked a big bit to the West of the Ferry.

 

[brogdale]

I did know this, but only because I once lived in Woolwich (the proper south of the river bit) and remember reading something about it

This old map, (19C I think), shows the 'anomaly' very clearly. Kent is shown as the area where 'Standard telephone's factory site was (between Tate&Lyles & the old railway station) and then from the railway station, up through Gallions and as far as Barking creek. Interestingly there was always a 'tongue' of Essex (East Ham) that separated the 'exclaves' where the present Royal Victoria gardens are now.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Pink readers?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Pink readers?

it's an Oyster Card Route Validator. More here (TfL) - you swipe your Oyster card there to prove you've changed trains at (for example) Whitechapel and thus stayed in zone 2 to go from A to B so you don't get charged for going via zone 1.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

This old map, (19C I think), shows the 'anomaly' very clearly.

it's in detail on this 1908 London map (not putting images up, as they are huge)

 

[Sparkle Motion]

I'm feeling this strange overwhelming urge to go there and plant a flag.

 

[DaveCinzano]

...as a Man of Kent...

...I am a man of Kent...

As a Maid of Kent...

If it wasn't bad enough having to deal with the wrong sort of Saxons all over the shop, and now these Jutish swine with no sense of shame popping up left, right and centre

 

[brogdale]

If it wasn't bad enough having to deal with the wrong sort of Saxons all over the shop, and now these Jutish swine with no sense of shame popping up left, right and centre

It's always the Jutes with you people!

 

[brogdale]

it's an Oyster Card Route Validator. More here (TfL) - you swipe your Oyster card there to prove you've changed trains at (for example) Whitechapel and thus stayed in zone 2 to go from A to B so you don't get charged for going via zone 1.

Living in the deprivation of the deep southern 'burbs, these pinkies are rapidly becoming one of my favourite things. I've even coloured in a TfL map, with sticky dots and all, just to see where exactly we can get for £2.40 without incurring the cost of the dreaded Z1.

For those of us not yet old enough for the freedom pass these cost savers are important; I might set up a TfL 'top-tips' thread to draw together the collective money-saving knowledge of the boards...or has that already been done?

 

[brogdale]

I'm feeling this strange overwhelming urge to go there and plant a flag.

This would look good in North Woolwich....

 

[brogdale]

While I remember...this site does offer excellent tips for TfL users...

http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/

If I hadn't read Mike's advice I'd never had known about TfL's 'out of body experience' known as OSIs...but beware if you intend to use your OSI time to get a coffee...the times vary between stations, you know?

 

[DaveCinzano]

It's always the Jutes with you people!

Don't get me started on the Angles

 

[brogdale]

Don't get me started on the Angles

You sound just like an anti-danmitic Briton.