Dulwich Hamlet v. Eastbourne Borough, 28th January 2023
- Thread starter AveryDave
- Start date
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
Do we really have a "pretty small budget"? I'd be very surprised if it isn't above the divisional median, i.e. a top ten budget, in which case Ebbsfleet would be dwarfing the worst excesses of Tamplin era Billericay if they were spending five times what we are. I don't think it helps to exaggerate for dramatic effect. Whatever they're spending, Ebbsfleet have assembled a great squad when others have probably spent at least as much without getting anywhere near the same value, and they play football that's great to watch. Their second goal the other night was phenomenal. We'd nearly equalised and most away teams in that situation would be looking to take their time restarting. Instead one of their outfield players took a quick goal kick, played short, before our forwards had even vacated the box and they swept to the other end to score again with a stunning finish. Obviously I'd rather we hadn't been on the receiving end but it's great to see that sort of positive approach rewarded.
Our own greater problem is surely the proportion of the budget being wasted on players who haven't been available most of the time, specifically Comley, Kalala and Hill. I doubt any of those are on below average money given their pedigree and two of them appear to have been unfit when we signed them. (Kalala's knee injury was unfortunate, we've had similar bad luck with Ming last season and Tajbakhsh a couple of years earlier.)
I thought we played pretty well for 75/80 minutes yesterday. The first half was fairly even with Eastbourne looking the more likely to score until Porter's fantastic strike at the end. They're no better than a decent mid-table side but they look much better attacking than defending. Once they were chasing the game they were more vulnerable at the back, but despite some good attacking play we just couldn't capitalise and score another goal. The way we just seemed to run out of steam when they finally equalised was more worrying to me than Farnborough and Slough, when we just didn't really turn up and were behind for most of the game. I think Taylor and Krasniqi especially had run themselves into the ground before the end. People criticise Raymond for slowing the play down too much and not showing enough urgency on the ball (much as Carew used to so) but he does give us a grip in midfield when we're in front that we couldn't sustain yesterday. He'll be missing again at Weymouth next weekend, as will Ming.
AveryDave
Well-Known Member
Since the 2012/13 season the team finishing fourth from bottom in the National League South has averaged 49 points over a 46-game season. That stays the same with or without the Covid effected seasons. Highest would have been 52 points from last season, lowest would have been 44 points from 2016/17.
So based on the last 10 years on average we'd need another 19 points to stay up.
Of our remaining 20 games, and not including Taunton as they've played six games less than we have and would be above us on a points-per-game basis, we have six matches against teams currently below us in the League (three at home, three away) the first of which is Weymouth next week. We also have to play each of the teams currently in the top seven (three at home, four away).
It goes without saying that a huge amount will transpire between now and the end of April and that there's plenty of time to get the results we need, but at the same time I think most of us would have felt more comfortable four weeks ago.
So based on the last 10 years on average we'd need another 19 points to stay up.
Of our remaining 20 games, and not including Taunton as they've played six games less than we have and would be above us on a points-per-game basis, we have six matches against teams currently below us in the League (three at home, three away) the first of which is Weymouth next week. We also have to play each of the teams currently in the top seven (three at home, four away).
It goes without saying that a huge amount will transpire between now and the end of April and that there's plenty of time to get the results we need, but at the same time I think most of us would have felt more comfortable four weeks ago.
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Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
The brand of football Craig plays may not be aesthetically wonderful but his teams punch their weight and he's relentlessly effective at getting the basics right. His Hamlet team was full of big strong athletes with pace and stamina. We were also very effective on set pieces at both ends of the pitch. I've never felt so confident defending a 1-0 lead as I did when Craig was our manager. Conversely we often struggled to find a way back if we conceded first and were still behind after an hour or so. There appeared to be no real Plan B. In fairness most of the teams he's managed have probably had relatively skinny resources.
scousedom
Well-Known Member
Think we all saw last season, what with still being in with a shout of a playoff spot with 5-6 games to go despite being generally garbage, that the division is half-full of 1.25-1.5 points per game teams.
Sometimes they go on winning runs, it doesn’t make them great; sometimes they go on losing runs it doesn’t make them awful. They are what they are: plodding dross with occasional flashes. Only a serious (relative to the rest) injection or shortfall of cash, sustained luck or both will break a side out of that.
So imo it’ll play out just like that for the rest of the season, and the season after, and the season after, and the season after…. until something (un)lucky or (un)lucrative happens.
Which sounds quite boring and brings me to the existential point which is that if, as I don’t think can be argued against, the mens side have reached their limit - one more possible (and probably short-loved) promotion notwithstanding if luck/cash happens - shouldn’t the club pivot to throwing everything into the womens side?
The mens pyramid is essentially set but the womens is going to be set in the next 10-20 years as the game goes through a growth spurt then settles down. A club with DHFC infrastructure could feasibly establish itself as a second or third tier entity in that pyramid, if it moved now. But waiting until after that growth has happened and then trying to move up will be much harder and costlier than if attempted now. Personally, I’d be using the mens games as a cash cow to fund a womens set-up with ambitions to charge up the league as quickly as possible.
The mens side will only ever be the 120th-150th biggest deal in the country. But the womens side - if the club prioritised it right now - could break top 30.
Sometimes they go on winning runs, it doesn’t make them great; sometimes they go on losing runs it doesn’t make them awful. They are what they are: plodding dross with occasional flashes. Only a serious (relative to the rest) injection or shortfall of cash, sustained luck or both will break a side out of that.
So imo it’ll play out just like that for the rest of the season, and the season after, and the season after, and the season after…. until something (un)lucky or (un)lucrative happens.
Which sounds quite boring and brings me to the existential point which is that if, as I don’t think can be argued against, the mens side have reached their limit - one more possible (and probably short-loved) promotion notwithstanding if luck/cash happens - shouldn’t the club pivot to throwing everything into the womens side?
The mens pyramid is essentially set but the womens is going to be set in the next 10-20 years as the game goes through a growth spurt then settles down. A club with DHFC infrastructure could feasibly establish itself as a second or third tier entity in that pyramid, if it moved now. But waiting until after that growth has happened and then trying to move up will be much harder and costlier than if attempted now. Personally, I’d be using the mens games as a cash cow to fund a womens set-up with ambitions to charge up the league as quickly as possible.
The mens side will only ever be the 120th-150th biggest deal in the country. But the womens side - if the club prioritised it right now - could break top 30.
But would that women’s side bring the income that comes from the men? Do we want to become a women’s team with a men’s section tagged on like Leers?
scousedom
Well-Known Member
Lewes?
Yeah why not.
I think in ten years the top say 30 womens teams will be 27-28 sides with mens Prem/Championship sides and 2-3 others. We could be one of those others. And I think a 4000-5000 stadium being mostly full would sustain a top 30 ish position in the womens game. Just as it will sustain 120th in the mens.
The point is to invest everything we can now in the womens, accepting we won’t get the return for several years.
But it seems to me that that is a quid better, or more interestingly, spent than on maxing out the mens budget to achieve another season of low to mid table grind.
And as I say it feels like it’ll be much cheaper to do now than once the growth spurt has happened.
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
I don't think we have a particularly big budget, particularly not now Deadfield, Akanbi, Hill, and Splatt have been moved on with no replacements. Confess I don't know the wage bill, but I know what some of the Dulwich players are on roughly, and I also know several of the Ebbsfleet players are on 4-figure wage packets. Just look at the CVs of Solly, Poleon, Wright, Bingham, O'Neil, Tanner, Martin, Hollis and Coulthirst. They've all got substantial League or Scottish League experience. They're not down there for £300 a week. And that's not taking into account Cundle, Monlouis, Chapman, Edser and the other established non-league players that make up their squad. 5 times was just a very rough calculation I made in my head, but I don't think it's miles off. Maybe more like 4 now I've sat down and counted a few bits up. But that's more a reflection of my poor mathematical skills, than any desire for dramatic effect.
Completely second your points about the budget being tied up in players that are unavailable. Like you say, they're likely to be players on decent whack, and it makes freeing up that money for new players very difficult. Kalala is a real shame - I think he'd make a big difference.
Completelt agree re Raymond too. Can't fault Krasniqi or Quade's effort yesterday, but Raymomd is much more of a natural at dictating a midfield. Big miss for next Saturday. I wonder if Comley, with his Conference National experience may be a better choice for the Weymouth game.
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
I'm going partly from figures given by our chairman at fans' forums and shareholders' meetings and also from other insiders I trust as reliable sources, and figures will be subject to inflation, but I reckon the median weekly budget for our division is in the region of £7k and ours will be above that figure. Obviously the bcd season (and Jack Pearce's masonic society division of lottery funds) was a massive setback but I doubt we budgeted for the average attendance of 2,700 we got last season, so there ought to be some kind of surplus there.
I do find it a bit odd that Comley hasn't been used more, regardless of lack of match fitness. He's got a lot of Ibrahim Kargbo's qualities in that "number 4" role and he's not going to get anymore match sharp by not playing. He's also been alarmingly slack a couple of times after playing well for 45 minutes +.
So what you are asking is for the men’s budget to be reduced to build up the women’s team, with inherent risk that the men’s team will not sustain the crowds and so sink backwards? Or am I misunderstanding?
By the way, Lewes have their equal pay model only because they have separate large sponsors for their women’s team and their biggest attendance is under 2000 for a game with Man Utd.
scousedom
Well-Known Member
That’s exactly what I’m suggesting, yes. Given, as is well documented, a large proportion of attendees don’t watch the game, it doesn’t matter if the men “sink backwards” - people will still come. And if they don’t, others will come (back) instead. So I think the risk you highlight which would be real in most other cases is minimised in ours. And also if they did sink back, then so too would playing staff costs.
Lewes actually got close to 2,400 last season against Liverpool. And they’re ** a small village in the country. We’re zone two London. If we invest and put a really good womens team together, people will come. Not enough to sustain it initially, but eventually.
See the 70-yard Lewes stunner which beat Liverpool at the Dripping Pan
This is the moment Lewes stunned champions Liverpool - with an extraordinary goal from their keeper.
And just think how much more could be achieved, in difference-making terms, if the wages of just one of the expensive mens crocks was given to the womens team instead of back to the mens. The “it’s got to generate its own money” narrative has been used to hold back the womens game for years. It’s only now people are understanding there is real demand for it but in some cases the investment needs to come up front to get that demand along to games.
** Edited to clarify that Liverpool are not a small village in the country.
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Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
Can't comment on the women's team aspect of this because I haven't seen them or had any involvement, but as for the existential/boring bit: it's cliche, but I really think it's what you make of it.
And I say that as someone who's thought the same as you. Could we go much higher? If we do, what will happen to us? Will it be mid table grind season after season? Do we want to go up? Will it destroy the relaxed-drink-beer-at-the-pitchside atmosphere we currently have? (I think it possibly might, yes.)
That doesn't sound great to me, so I think it's about how you measure the experience. If you measure it solely in terms of wins/promotions then you're better off supporting a pro team, tbh, or certainly one with resources to break into League Football.
But there are other metrics. I attach enormous importance to the LSC for e.g. - it's a way of winning a prestigous, old tournament without condeming yourself to 42 games of getting thumped about by Disney+'s Wrexham and Notts County. It's why I really hope that one day we enter the Surrey Senior Cup as well. I think winning those two would be fantastic, and proof that you can win cups and be a successful club without almost accidentally dragging yourself into divisions you're going to struggle to compete in.
In fact, I think it's a shame there's not more cups at this level. I think it allows clubs to stay at a sustainable level, and still have some trophy success. When I started watching Dulwich as a 6 year old in 1999, we had the London Challenge Cup on top of the LSC, League Cup, and the SSC. I think cup tournaments are far better suited to this level of football.
And then I think there's a question of entertainment. If the football is attractive and there's lots of goals, and we're not getting relegated every year, then great. I couldn't give a shit if we go up. That's why I've warmed to Barnes very quickly - the football is positive and he's shot happy, and I think surely that makes for a more exciting afternoon than grinding out 1-0s in a desperate attempt for promotion.
There's a point about community as well. Dulwich is in the middle of South London which suffers badly, as we all know, from gangs and knife crime. It's also an absolute hotbed of footballing talent. If DHFC can play a role in helping youngsters keep away from that side of things, then I think it's existence, and the attendance of 3,000 people every fortnight, is wholly justified. Even better if we can springboard them into the football league and help them get a professional career out of the sport, as we've done with so many players in recent years. (Again, was really pleased to see Barnes being so upbeat about Clarke's move to Gillingham.)
I think in football today so much is attached to winning things. But life/football is more complicated than that - there's many different forms of success. I think as long as you recognise that, it ceases to be boring - and frankly, a bit more fun!
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I've absolutely gone off on one in this thread. I will shut up now.
scousedom
Well-Known Member
Yea. Not saying for a moment there can be no enjoyment with no on-pitch progress. Quite the opposite. I’m just looking at it from a pure “bang for buck” basis. And concluding; why pour all the money into the mens team to achieve nothing really meaningful when something much more meaningful could be built in the womens game instead?
Doing that doesn’t have to detract at all from the community aspects to the mens side that you mention, and in fact it could increase the good that can be done - after all, if you build a top 30 womens side, what sort of additional platform comes with that?
Doing that doesn’t have to detract at all from the community aspects to the mens side that you mention, and in fact it could increase the good that can be done - after all, if you build a top 30 womens side, what sort of additional platform comes with that?
Taper
Mark McGann
There are good rugby models here where outside the professional ranks the best clubs build a structure around a strong men's first team that includes a strong women's first team and then good age grade teams all the way down to juniors. Plus a history of developing talent into higher levels. Blackheath and Camborne are good examples. Lots of history. Strong links to the community. Good competitive top team. Seems to me a lot hinges on a successful transition to the new stadium before the club can build that kind of structure. But we should be planning to do so. Doesn't necessarily require staying in this league of course.
Answers to a few questions
There is no appearance money just a basic wage plus bonuses based on success
Building a club- that goes way beyond throwing money at a women’s team in the hope they rise to a decent level and involves junior boys and girls football and other community teams.
scousedom i know you want the crowds to go back to lower levels so kids can kick a football around on the terraces. Me, I’ve seen far too many of those years and too many battles to keep the club afloat to want that.
Paying woman instead of men’s crocks - well what if we decide to spend money on women players who will equally have their share of crocks. Then there’s people who call for us to pay the current women, but honestly what do you think they’re worth? Paying them won’t make them better players. They are at a low level and current players won’t get better just by paying them.
So we pay money to attract players of a higher quality who will likely also include some crocks as well.
As for loads of fans not watching the football, we’ll that’s their way of supporting the club and I very much doubt the numbers allegedly driven away will replace them if they take their money elsewhere. But you seem to think there’s a whole lot of ‘proper’ fans just waiting for them to move on and replace them.
I want to see money spent growing the club on so many levels as it solely relies on the men’s side to survive.
I want to see
Community football - boys, girls, disabilities, walking football
Increased commercial income not associated with a men’s match-day plus corporate income at matches
Better facilities that generate 7 day income.
Funds raised to run community activities every day- mental health clubs, meet ups for older people, work with all sorts of underrepresented groups through the club
Kids coaching
Work in schools
All this as part of balanced investment while using facilities in a new stadium that are fit for these purposes.
I want to see Academies for men and women to increase opportunities for local youth.
I would build the women’s side from this not just a replica of the men’s team whereby we just buy in better players.
But I’m sure we all have different views of the future and none are right or wrong.
As many on here have never witnessed the joyless experience of watching the men’s team struggle halfway down Isthmian Div 1 you’ll not get the deeply joyless experience but just go to the Tooting forum to find out what running a facility for community activities without a care about focus on the actual football gives you.
There is no appearance money just a basic wage plus bonuses based on success
Building a club- that goes way beyond throwing money at a women’s team in the hope they rise to a decent level and involves junior boys and girls football and other community teams.
scousedom i know you want the crowds to go back to lower levels so kids can kick a football around on the terraces. Me, I’ve seen far too many of those years and too many battles to keep the club afloat to want that.
Paying woman instead of men’s crocks - well what if we decide to spend money on women players who will equally have their share of crocks. Then there’s people who call for us to pay the current women, but honestly what do you think they’re worth? Paying them won’t make them better players. They are at a low level and current players won’t get better just by paying them.
So we pay money to attract players of a higher quality who will likely also include some crocks as well.
As for loads of fans not watching the football, we’ll that’s their way of supporting the club and I very much doubt the numbers allegedly driven away will replace them if they take their money elsewhere. But you seem to think there’s a whole lot of ‘proper’ fans just waiting for them to move on and replace them.
I want to see money spent growing the club on so many levels as it solely relies on the men’s side to survive.
I want to see
Community football - boys, girls, disabilities, walking football
Increased commercial income not associated with a men’s match-day plus corporate income at matches
Better facilities that generate 7 day income.
Funds raised to run community activities every day- mental health clubs, meet ups for older people, work with all sorts of underrepresented groups through the club
Kids coaching
Work in schools
All this as part of balanced investment while using facilities in a new stadium that are fit for these purposes.
I want to see Academies for men and women to increase opportunities for local youth.
I would build the women’s side from this not just a replica of the men’s team whereby we just buy in better players.
But I’m sure we all have different views of the future and none are right or wrong.
As many on here have never witnessed the joyless experience of watching the men’s team struggle halfway down Isthmian Div 1 you’ll not get the deeply joyless experience but just go to the Tooting forum to find out what running a facility for community activities without a care about focus on the actual football gives you.
scousedom
Well-Known Member
Just on this. I know it’s not what you’re suggesting is my motivation here. But want to emphasise that this has nothing to do whatsoever with my suggestion for the mens team/club effectively subsidising the womens team. Indeed as I say I don’t think there will be any reduction in attendances at mens games whether the team stays up or doesn’t. And actually, what I’m suggesting would in time (if it worked) lead to sell outs at the womens games too.
Completely agree on building a whole club infrastructure and not just the first team. It’s something that is disproportionately lacking in the womens game across the board - and leads for example to the debates about how inclusive the England womens team are. Again, if the point of the exercise is spend the money where is would make the most difference, establishing an infrastructure right through the ages for girls/women at Dulwich would be far more notable/unique than our doing so for boys/men.
I note that no one is violently disagreeing with the top 30 vs 120-150th logic, which is something. For me it just all boils down to “do you want to just keep on doing the same thing to achieve the same mediocrity than tens of others in your league will achieve each year, or do you want to try and do something a bit unique?”.
I didn’t comment on the Top30 comment but don’t think you are right. Pressure on the high level clubs will see them put resources from their TV money onto it. There are 20 Premier League clubs alone who will all invest in their women eventually so I think a long term aim of Top 30 may be wishful, especially with a long way to go before there are a sufficient pool of women players to drift down from higher level academies as in the men.
scousedom
Well-Known Member
Well we can check back in in 2033 then and see who was right. Although of course if no one from outside the big mens clubs is brave enough to attempt it, it won’t happen by default. Needs a few people with guts and vision and a broader horizon than “let’s just do what we’ve always done”.
Top thirty means you need to be in the top quarter of tier three. Tier one and two is fast becoming pro clubs only. I saw a comment from Lewes WFC on the Beeb last year basically saying they didn't expect survive at tier two for long, they simply can't compete with Premier League clubs on appeal, money or facilities. See Coventry United too.
Then you have the pro clubs just starting to take it seriously, Wolves were late starters in taking women's football seriously but are knocking on the door to tier two now. Southampton, promoted to tier two last season after beating Wolves in a play off have moved from Alresford Town to the main stadium. My neighbours daughter is on their books, aged eleven. It would be a huge job to facilitate that sort of pathway on a shoestring.
I think top thirty is possible now but suspect in ten years pro clubs will fill tiers one and two and most / all of tier three.
I think the best thing for Hamlet to do would be to grow a big boys and girls section. Some will move on to bigger and better. Some will end up playing first XI for Hamlet. Others won't but they'll pick up various social / life skills etc. See how far the women can rise off the back of that / relatively organically. No issues with a bit of a subsidy as they establish themselves but I'd be wary of too much.
One painful lesson women's football has seen repeatedly is that if the men's team struggles financially the women's team usually suffer disproportionately. (Charlton, Notts County etc.,) If the women's section was heavily subsidised and the men's gates went down (seemingly already happening midweek this season) you could end up with a real mess.
Then you have the pro clubs just starting to take it seriously, Wolves were late starters in taking women's football seriously but are knocking on the door to tier two now. Southampton, promoted to tier two last season after beating Wolves in a play off have moved from Alresford Town to the main stadium. My neighbours daughter is on their books, aged eleven. It would be a huge job to facilitate that sort of pathway on a shoestring.
I think top thirty is possible now but suspect in ten years pro clubs will fill tiers one and two and most / all of tier three.
I think the best thing for Hamlet to do would be to grow a big boys and girls section. Some will move on to bigger and better. Some will end up playing first XI for Hamlet. Others won't but they'll pick up various social / life skills etc. See how far the women can rise off the back of that / relatively organically. No issues with a bit of a subsidy as they establish themselves but I'd be wary of too much.
One painful lesson women's football has seen repeatedly is that if the men's team struggles financially the women's team usually suffer disproportionately. (Charlton, Notts County etc.,) If the women's section was heavily subsidised and the men's gates went down (seemingly already happening midweek this season) you could end up with a real mess.
editor
hiraethified
Pics
www.brixtonbuzz.com
In photos: Dulwich Hamlet slump to third defeat in a row, losing 1-3 at home to Eastbourne Borough, Sat 28th Jan 2023
Dulwich Hamlet’s parlous run of form continues, with the pink and blues losing three games on the trot and conceding no less than 16 goals in the last five games. On Saturday. a sold out crow…
www.brixtonbuzz.com
Some nice photos despite the resultPics
In photos: Dulwich Hamlet slump to third defeat in a row, losing 1-3 at home to Eastbourne Borough, Sat 28th Jan 2023
Dulwich Hamlet’s parlous run of form continues, with the pink and blues losing three games on the trot and conceding no less than 16 goals in the last five games. On Saturday. a sold out crow…
Christian Burt
Well-Known Member
This has to be the greatest post ever on Urban, certainly related to DHFC
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
The date is 3 weeks after I qualify for my state pension, assuming the Tories haven't increased the age again by then. I hope I can last long enough to discover the result!
That seems very simplistic because whatever route takes loads of money to be invested and in terms of ‘bang for your buck’ investing in community teams across all levels and building the women’s team bottom up seems the route that most fits with the need to create loads of different teams. . Maybe lobby the Trust as a major shareholder to push the vision you have
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