To be fair, you identified yourself as being part of the Anti Fascist Network on the book's jacket. Hence the "who are you?" I suspect.
Disruption at Book Fairs
- Thread starter PeterTCA
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To be fair, you identified yourself as being part of the Anti Fascist Network on the book's jacket. Hence the "who are you?" I suspect.
So if people turnedup at an anarchist bookfaor with leaflets calling the holocaust a hoax and promoting illluminari conspiracy theories we should just be fine with that as well?
I don't know what the leaflets were btw and I think it's relevent. But the leaflets they gave out in london were a pack of lies intended to stir up as much hatred against trans people as possible. That is their strategy, to use misinformation to recruit and radicalise people against trans people, and they could not give a fuck if the pursuit of this aim destroys what's left of organised anarchist activity in the UK completely because stopping trans inclusion (the biggest threat to women in 100 years according to Womens Place and others) is now a priority that overrides all other political objectives. This is a scorched earth operation amongst the more virulent anti-trans activists and they are quite prepared to sacrifice the radical left in their quest. The question is do we let them succeed?
This is the problem. People seriously equating gender critical women with Nazis.
Seriously.
Then thinking that therefore justifies a no platform response, and even violent retaliation to silence them.
Here’s the thing: women questioning transgenderism is NOT like the Nazis. It’s nothing like fascism. There is not even a parallel with racism.
The vast majority of these women do not hate transgender people. They don’t wish to “eliminate” them. This is fucking nonsense, but the real world impact of this hyperbole is causing vicious infighting. Pointless drama.
Stop saying “Terfs” are like “Nazis”, accept that not all women want males who identify as females in their spaces, and actually create a dialogue with these women instead of man-handling them out.
Then crack on with the real job, which has got fuck all to do with how individuals identify.
I'm not saying they are like nazis, most illuminati conspiracy theorists aren't fully signed up nazis, I was using the analogy to show the difference between a coherent political argument, such as a critique of gender, and propaganda full of lies which is purely intended to generate hatred. That's what the leaflets at the London Bookfair were, I don't know about Manchester but it was the same group handing them out.
Everyone seems to acknowledge that yes, there are a few anti-trans people who are genuinely malevolent and opposed to the existence of trans people but hardly anyone seems to be acknowledging that by and large they are the ones leading this movement and it is their propaganda that is informing that side of the debate. Get rid of them, then we can have a proper conversation, because up till now even the most reasonable debate seems to involve trans people having to show over and over again that actually that crap Sheila Jeffries said or the Daily Mail just published or someone posted on mumsnet isn't true. It's exhausting, it provokes anger, it makes people frightened and ultimately will lead to trans people withdrawing from radical politics - which of course is the intention of those who generate this misinformation.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's no coincidence you round on smokedout instead of the posters who brought racism and fascism into the thread
I mentioned holocaust deniers, who are often at great pains to tell us they aren't Nazis. The reason I mentioned it is that is is the most obvious example I could think of a pseudo-intellectual argument that presents itself as just innocently asking questions whilst masking a wider and more insidious agenda. There are others, but that seems to be the best fit, and I'm not the only one who has noticed the similarity between anti-trans propaganda and anti-semitic propaganda.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Plus it's quite difficult to have a conversation with someone who is just going to shout "penis" repeatedly.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I'd be quite happy to discuss the differences and similarities between the protagonists on this issue and the far right.
The only reason I brought up the NF was to counter the idea that handing out leaflets was an ideologically and emotionally neutral activity.
I'm not sure that "no platforming" is the appropriate solution to this issue.
Physically removing someone from an event that they have been asked not to attend is not "no platforming".
The only reason I brought up the NF was to counter the idea that handing out leaflets was an ideologically and emotionally neutral activity.
I'm not sure that "no platforming" is the appropriate solution to this issue.
Physically removing someone from an event that they have been asked not to attend is not "no platforming".
Maybe the more relevant part of the no platforming is asking them not to even attend, let alone discuss their ideas.
What is the justification for this?
Surely if someone has a history of causing disruption by ignoring an event's policies then there comes a point at which it's not unreasonable to ask them not to come to future events. Bit like how sometimes people get perma-banned on urban.
And I'm sure had they turned up without leaflets then they would'nt have been refused entry. In fact it seems they weren't refused entry but when they broke the rules of the venue they were asked to leave and when they refused were made to leave. That's not an unusual phenomena, and its not no platforming.
andysays
Love and solidarity
There is a huge difference between refusing someone a stall at an event like this, asking them not to attend and eventually ejecting them when they turn up anyway and hand out leaflets, and no platforming.
The latter means attempting to deny someone any platform at all, including picketing or physically disrupting their meetings. To describe what's happened here as no platforming is not just inaccurate, it's frankly dishonest
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
That isn't no platforming either.
But it comes back to the question of why this is a debate that cannot be had. Either at this book fair, or at other locations that women set up.
And the answer, so far as I can tell, is because it’s women challenging men and telling them they can’t necessarily have it their way.
And then, it doesn’t even matter if it’s an anarchists fucking book fair the answer will be what it’s always been. Shut your mouth or we’ll shut it for you.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
It is a debate which is being had. In fact sometimes it seems that people are discussing nothing else. That is very different from the most extreme protagonists (from either side) being welcomed into a specific event with open arms.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
No. And I think drawing parallels between that and a few anarcho-feminist women handing out leaflets of whatever type they were is not really helpful nor fair tbh.
E2A: Just saw your later reply which explains it a bit more, cheers.
My over-riding feeling about all of this has reached a place of resigned despair at the state of the anarchist 'movement'. With all the shit going on, all the organization and serious activity that needs work, and all the solidarity that's being cried out for, it's this and this kind of thing that takes up so much of people's time.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i preferred it when the beefs at bookfairs were personal or at least founded on anarchist thought
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
A comrade who was at the Manchester and Salford bookfair confirms it was indeed the "woke anarchist" statement that Helen Steel and others were handing out. So, not a TERF leaflet then.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
..
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andysays
Love and solidarity
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
It's poorly written, occasionally scattergun and all over the place but occasionally hits the spot. It's not transphobic or "TERF propaganda" and that apparently is the reason for ejecting those handing it out.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
They were handing that out, but not only that. I'm trying to get hold of all the leaflets they were.
andysays
Love and solidarity
I've yet to see any statement from the organisers explaining what happened and why, or any other statement of the reason for ejecting those handing out the leaflet, other than vague speculation and assumption.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
It's a crap statement which includes this:
Which is at best an unbalanced account of the antagonisms at work. "Gender Critical Feminists" can also fall into identity politics but they are not really mentioned.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
That would be good. There were a couple of different leaflets handed out at the London Anarchist Bookfair too iirc.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The woke anarchist thing is in no way a terf thing. If we - and i do mean people here - are going to use these terms, to engage in that politics it is really important that you get this correct. That piece is coming from the right place - and to those who are in this debate - you need to respect that. If not, then bye.
A load of non-anarchists getting involved here though?
A load of non-anarchists getting involved here though?
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
It is a crap statement, but anarchists writing crap statements shouldn't get you ejected, otherwise you'd only get about 2 stalls and a handful of visitors to most anarchist bookfairs 
Agreed, it'd be interesting to find out what else they were handing out.
Agreed, it'd be interesting to find out what else they were handing out.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I can't help feeling that if someone came up with that on here, you'd be pretty critical of their failure to define their terms though? Or even directly quote people.
I completely agree that we urgently need a lot more criticism of identity politics but I'm not sure a run through the usual stereotypes of triggering, feminazis, safe spaces etc is it. It's not as good as the stuff Red Action and the IWCA were doing 20 years ago...
If it leads to other/better things then great.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I want an open ring - i want more people talking stuff even if it's shit. I think/hope that this may kick the door in for this. And maybe set the grounds for it. Because otherwise it's comedy stalinism that's going to win.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
OK. That would be good.
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