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DHFC on Sunday Politics London

In a thick American accent! Irony really is lost on the Yanks.

Come on now. Our city is a world city. You don't have to have a north/south/east/whatever London accent to identify with being a "Londoner".

If someone has lived here for a while and feel London is their home, then they are a Londoner in my book....or better still a South Londoner.
 
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Come on now. Our city is a world city. You don't have to have a north/south/east/whatever London accent to identify with being a "Londoner".

If someone has lived here for a while and feel London is their home, then they are a Londoner in my book....or better still a South Londoner.

Yeh, fair enough. I was perhaps blinded by petulance. Deleted now.
 
Come on now. Our city is a world city. You don't have to have a north/south/east/whatever London accent to identify with being a "Londoner".

If someone has lived here for a while and feel London is their home, then they are a Londoner in my book....or better still a South Londoner.

Are you sure? I’ve been here 23 years and people still point out my non-London-ness to me. But anyway, I digress.
 
Come on now. Our city is a world city. You don't have to have a north/south/east/whatever London accent to identify with being a "Londoner".

If someone has lived here for a while and feel London is their home, then they are a Londoner in my book....or better still a South Londoner.

Sure, apart from the fact he lives in New York, or has until VERY recently. I'd be thrilled if he'd moved over here to 'sort this out' and that ended in *that* interview.
 
Come on now. Our city is a world city. You don't have to have a north/south/east/whatever London accent to identify with being a "Londoner".

If someone has lived here for a while and feel London is their home, then they are a Londoner in my book....or better still a South Londoner.
Well said...the Hampshire boy! ;)
 
Are you sure? I’ve been here 23 years and people still point out my non-London-ness to me. But anyway, I digress.

And from previous comments you've made I gather you're proud of being a non-Londoner...

If I lived somewhere else for 20 plus years I'd still be a Londoner
 
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I think McDonald's, presented himself well compared to the new characters on the scene since Hadley leaving.
His appearance now helps build the narrative.

McDonald's Meadow Partners is the funder and owner - MedowsPartners, who purchased the land

Meadow Partners - did this through via Peter Bennison - Hadley.
Peter leaves Hadley and sets up Meadow Residential with a new team.
Since Meadow took over it has been a train wreck.

McDonald's has to step in to rescue his brand and protect their name. I doubt McDonald's has been involved in this project beyond checking the figures and his investment.
 
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Well you shouldn't. The provision of the football club is more important.
How can a football club possibly be "more important" than provision of social housing, especially in the current context?

Providing and safeguarding housing is one of the core functions of a local authority. And they certainly shouldn't allow themselves to be pushed into a making a choice between carrying out that duty properly and protecting the interests of a football club.
 
How can a football club possibly be "more important" than provision of social housing, especially in the current context?

Providing and safeguarding housing is one of the core functions of a local authority. And they certainly shouldn't allow themselves to be pushed into a making a choice between carrying out that duty properly and protecting the interests of a football club.

Common sense. The football club has existed for 124 years. It is a community asset.

There is no social housing to protect. It doesn't exist.
 
Common sense. The football club has existed for 124 years. It is a community asset.

There is no social housing to protect. It doesn't exist.
Affordable housing quotas on new developments are effectively one of the few ways we currently manage to get anything approaching new social housing built. They are standard practice and part of planning policy. Any developer is aware that it's a cost they take on when developing a site.

As I understand it the deal here is basically that we give up some public open space for a new football stadium. That's already controversial, because strong arguments can be made for metropolitan open space being a significant community asset. Which by definition has existed for much longer than the football club.

Also as I understand it, the club's ground has a planning condition on it that protects it as for leisure use. So, in planning terms, the "do nothing" option means that the football ground stays, and the open space does not get built on.

To give permission to build housing on the site, then, something has to be given up - either valuable open space or a valued local football club.

Let's set aside any argument about which is more valuable. If the developer is asking "us" for one or other to disappear, then what are they providing in return? If they are providing a generous amount of social or affordable housing then maybe giving up one of those community assets can be justified. Maybe. If they are providing just a standard amount - the same as any developer would have to provide on any site, where no community asset was lost as a result - then that seems a very bad deal. So, they are also throwing in a new football stadium. But they are actually just providing the bricks and mortar of that stadium - they are not providing the actually expensive and valuable part which is the land it sits on. So to me, it doesn't look like an amazing deal, even before they try and propose a significantly reduced affordable housing quota.

So, I think Southwark are right to reject what is in effect a bad deal.

All of the planning context of the site will have been known by the developer when they bought the site. They make a commercial assessment of likelihood of getting planning permission for what they want to build. If they don't get it, and lose money, that's their problem, not the council's. The developer is obviously using the club as a negotiating tool. The council shouldn't give in to that. Of course, if you look at it only in terms of the interest of the football club, then it seems like a solution to let them have what they want, in exchange for the benefits for the club. But that's not the only interest at stake here and it's not the only interest that the council should have an obligation to defend.

If you say you don't care about the affordable housing quota, as long as you get what you want then you are successfully being manipulated by the developers. Of course that's what they want DHFC supporters to say, because DHFC supporters have a strong voice in the media, and it puts pressure on the council and other politicians. Unlike the less easily vocalised and characterised general public and community interest in maintaining open public space, and providing affordable housing.

Additionally, it's pretty much standard practice for developers to pull negotiating strings with claims of schemes not being "viable". If it's not "viable" that's their problem. Southwark are right to call their bluff. The particular financial/ownership situation and difficulties of the club are really a separate issue as far as I can see, possibly ones that have been successfully engineered by the developers, and I don't think it's right for them to start influencing planning decisions.
 
Though I, for one, certainly do not see Greendale, and disused and grown over former ILEA playing field, as 'valuable open space'. All that would have happened on that land was for another football ground to be built on the part of it that was our former ground from 1912 to 1931...when we could get crowds of over 10,000 for big matches then.
 
The local community have generally backed redevelopment and supported a new stadium - but the pay back (for many of them was affordable housing) - working people locally want their kids to go to local schools and live locally - they don't want to be forced out into the wilds of Kent.

It's the same community that has come in numbers to our games and who are now donating money to pay the players and keep the club going - who else is doing that I don't see big companies doing that - I do see people giving generously in hard times, local kids giving up pocket money - surely we are more than match day entertainment - our endeavours have been to build and support our local community

The Supporters Trust and even Gavin Rose have spoken out on the need for affordable housing

Its simply the old mantra of Dulwich Hamlet "doing the right thing"
 
Though I, for one, certainly do not see Greendale, and disused and grown over former ILEA playing field, as 'valuable open space'. All that would have happened on that land was for another football ground to be built on the part of it that was our former ground from 1912 to 1931...when we could get crowds of over 10,000 for big matches then.
The big difference is the amount of open space around it in those days that has since been built upon. We've basically shuffled our ground back and forth on Dog Kennel Hill since 1902 whilst other developments have sprung up around it. Our club belongs there, but you can't just keep swallowing up all the adjacent green space until none is left. Communities need communal amenities like a football ground, and they need open space. There must be better options for housing development.
 
Possibly, probably...but I can't see a better way of our Club having 'one last Champion Hill throw of the dice' to safeguard our future for future generations than a decent private/affordable/social housing mix on our current site, with ourselves having a new ground next door, and the rest of the wasteland that is laughably called 'Green Dale' or even 'Green Dale Meadows'[the name only split from Greendale to give it a more cuddly green name] turned into a proper protected and maintained open space.

Personally, now that the last Meadows proposal has been thrown out I'd like to see what practical offers of support we've had from the 'Friends of Greendale' & the 'Friends of Dog Kennel Hill Wood' who have always claimed they are behind our club, but not the development...
 
In my opinion, the construction of the supermarket with a giant car park was a disastrous planning decision. To have a car-serviced supermarket in this kind of location is idiotic. Partly because it's just a generator of traffic in the area, but also on the basis of the vast amount of prime space wasted simply for parking. An equivalent amount of housing, to that proposed for the stadium site, could be provided within the area occupied by the car park.
 
Personally, now that the last Meadows proposal has been thrown out I'd like to see what practical offers of support we've had from the 'Friends of Greendale' & the 'Friends of Dog Kennel Hill Wood' who have always claimed they are behind our club, but not the development...
What kind of support - that they could reasonably be expected to give - would you like to see from these organisations?

Regarding the open space - there are various dismissive comments about its value, referring to it as "wasteland" and so on. It may be true that it could be better used. However, the point is that even if it's currently unattractive or un-useful, once it's built on that's it forever. There's no possibility of it becoming a better managed open space in the future. I think the instinct to have a "zero-tolerance" attitude to encroachment on public open space, once it gains any level of protection, is a good one. I can see that from the club's point of view, a last throw of the dice, and agreement that it goes no further, can seem a reasonable request. That's the kind of thinking that I'm sure the developers want to take advantage of. But it sets a precedent, and what do you say to the next good cause who wants to take away just a little bit of it, ten or twenty years later? And what's left 50 or 100 years down the line?
 
Affordable housing quotas on new developments are effectively one of the few ways we currently manage to get anything approaching new social housing built. They are standard practice and part of planning policy. Any developer is aware that it's a cost they take on when developing a site.

As I understand it the deal here is basically that we give up some public open space for a new football stadium. That's already controversial, because strong arguments can be made for metropolitan open space being a significant community asset. Which by definition has existed for much longer than the football club.

Also as I understand it, the club's ground has a planning condition on it that protects it as for leisure use. So, in planning terms, the "do nothing" option means that the football ground stays, and the open space does not get built on.

To give permission to build housing on the site, then, something has to be given up - either valuable open space or a valued local football club.

Let's set aside any argument about which is more valuable. If the developer is asking "us" for one or other to disappear, then what are they providing in return? If they are providing a generous amount of social or affordable housing then maybe giving up one of those community assets can be justified. Maybe. If they are providing just a standard amount - the same as any developer would have to provide on any site, where no community asset was lost as a result - then that seems a very bad deal. So, they are also throwing in a new football stadium. But they are actually just providing the bricks and mortar of that stadium - they are not providing the actually expensive and valuable part which is the land it sits on. So to me, it doesn't look like an amazing deal, even before they try and propose a significantly reduced affordable housing quota.

So, I think Southwark are right to reject what is in effect a bad deal.

All of the planning context of the site will have been known by the developer when they bought the site. They make a commercial assessment of likelihood of getting planning permission for what they want to build. If they don't get it, and lose money, that's their problem, not the council's. The developer is obviously using the club as a negotiating tool. The council shouldn't give in to that. Of course, if you look at it only in terms of the interest of the football club, then it seems like a solution to let them have what they want, in exchange for the benefits for the club. But that's not the only interest at stake here and it's not the only interest that the council should have an obligation to defend.

If you say you don't care about the affordable housing quota, as long as you get what you want then you are successfully being manipulated by the developers. Of course that's what they want DHFC supporters to say, because DHFC supporters have a strong voice in the media, and it puts pressure on the council and other politicians. Unlike the less easily vocalised and characterised general public and community interest in maintaining open public space, and providing affordable housing.

Additionally, it's pretty much standard practice for developers to pull negotiating strings with claims of schemes not being "viable". If it's not "viable" that's their problem. Southwark are right to call their bluff. The particular financial/ownership situation and difficulties of the club are really a separate issue as far as I can see, possibly ones that have been successfully engineered by the developers, and I don't think it's right for them to start influencing planning decisions.

All this sounds very reasonable. But soon there won't be a football club as we are controlled by our owner and the owner of the land.

Then there will be a football stadium with no football club. Will Southwark council care? Will you?

Just so some middle class people can buy a house for £300,000 instead of £500,000.
 
OK, let's agree for the purpose of the argument that the affordable housing opportunity, regardless of quota, is of no real social value. So we take that out of the equation.

You're controlled by the owner of the land. Who wants you off the land so they can make money out of it. In exchange for negotiating, on your behalf, to take away some existing public open space and put you there instead, in a new stadium where they'll be kind enough to stop bullying you.

But they are not just offering you a carrot - they are waving the stick which is that they'll destroy the club if you don't co-operate.

The wider "community" loses some open space. They don't actually gain a football stadium - what changes is that the football stadium ceases to be one where the landowner is holding the football club hostage.

Is that a fair summary of the situation?
 
In my opinion, the construction of the supermarket with a giant car park was a disastrous planning decision. To have a car-serviced supermarket in this kind of location is idiotic. Partly because it's just a generator of traffic in the area, but also on the basis of the vast amount of prime space wasted simply for parking. An equivalent amount of housing, to that proposed for the stadium site, could be provided within the area occupied by the car park.
Your prerogative of course (and tbh the issues then were a bit more complicated than you portray) but that ship sailed nearly 30 years ago. I’d rather focus on what we can do right now and into the future.
 
OK, let's agree for the purpose of the argument that the affordable housing opportunity, regardless of quota, is of no real social value. So we take that out of the equation.

You're controlled by the owner of the land. Who wants you off the land so they can make money out of it. In exchange for negotiating, on your behalf, to take away some existing public open space and put you there instead, in a new stadium where they'll be kind enough to stop bullying you.

But they are not just offering you a carrot - they are waving the stick which is that they'll destroy the club if you don't co-operate.

The wider "community" loses some open space. They don't actually gain a football stadium - what changes is that the football stadium ceases to be one where the landowner is holding the football club hostage.

Is that a fair summary of the situation?

Yes. I think so.

The football stadium is supposed to move onto a bit of land where there is already a five a side football pitch.
 
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