Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Darwinists Running Scared

What rubbish.

Materialism is called materialism, because it's the view that everything is made out of matter.

You can't just say materialism is science. The whole point of the argument is that the scientific consensus was in favour of materialism until relatively recently, and now there are powerful reasons for the scientific consensus to be against materialism, and against realism.

And I don't really know what you mean by saying -plus we've observed that the non-local behaviour of QM can have no causative effects. So it doesn't make these sorts of 'magical' phenomena possible.- But it sounds like rubbish again. - first because "the non-local behaviour of Quantum mechanics.." doesn't make sense, and second, because if it did make sense, it wouldn't be true. One causative effect it should have, among others, is to completely change one's concept of cause and effect.
 
ZWord said:
Materialism is called materialism, because it's the view that everything is made out of matter.

You can't just say materialism is science. The whole point of the argument is that the scientific consensus was in favour of materialism until relatively recently, and now there are powerful reasons for the scientific consensus to be against materialism, and against realism.

Light is not made of matter, and was discovered sometime ago, was this the end of materialism?
 
I see what you mean. But really, all that proves is that materialism never made much sense.

In fact there have been a lot of arguments about whether light is made of matter, and materialist scientists have generally held that it was made out of "photons" by which they meant tiny particles of matter that were emitted from light-emitting objects at the speed of light. And in fact this is true, at least some of the time, and you can even show detectors detecting single particles of light, which is very satisfactory for a materialist account of reality, but the problem is sometimes the particles don't behave at all like particles. --but saying assertively- "light is not made out of matter", would have put you against the scientific consensus of the twentieth century.

The fact that light was also discovered to behave like an electromagnetic wave certainly didn't deter materialist scientists from trying to fit it into a materialist framework, nor did the existence of other electromagnetic waves, and all manner of other bizarre phenomena dissuade them from trying to fit them into a materialist worldview. Because by then, it was considered unscientific to hold any other worldview.

To be honest, most scientists have never cared very much about the coherence of their philosophical position, which is why historically it has been easy for them to take materialist realism as a useful null hypothesis, and basis from which to do science. But the fact that a worldview is or has been useful as regards doing science, and so it becomes the norm for scientists to adopt it, does not in turn show that science has proved that that worldview is true.

I think it's fairly obvious that if you'd had this kind of conversation with any old scientific skeptics, and they were saying that science had failed to uncover any evidence of God, you could reasonably ask, what would count as evidence of God to them. And I think you'd find that if you put it to them that you could prove that it was normal for something to exist in two totally different places at the same time, and that some sort of invisible instaneous connection between these two manifestations, they would say, -yes, if you could prove that to me, I would admit, it was pretty miraculous.-
 
So...we have forces (e.g. light, gravity, nuclear) and we have matter, being composed as far as we know of very very very concentrated energy.
 
I'll take your point about materialism, I guess that's a pretty tight and correct definition. I suppose I was thinking about it terms of what's opposite to immaterialism, if you follow me. ie. theories about the material world that are not based in it, but without it.

ZWord said:
And I don't really know what you mean by saying -plus we've observed that the non-local behaviour of QM can have no causative effects. So it doesn't make these sorts of 'magical' phenomena possible.- But it sounds like rubbish again. - first because "the non-local behaviour of Quantum mechanics.." doesn't make sense, and second, because if it did make sense, it wouldn't be true. One causative effect it should have, among others, is to completely change one's concept of cause and effect.

But QM does have non-local behaviour. If you entangle two particles, move them apart and then look at one of them, you know with certainty what the property of the other particle is. The act of looking causes the superposition of states in the particle to collapse to one or the other. Simultaneously, the other particle's property collapses to the opposite value.

All gone over in great depth on that other thread :)
(see Jonti's excellent post http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=156774&page=3)
Which I just realised you participated in, so I don't know why you're getting confused.
 
ZWord said:
Materialism to me means believing that the universe is made out of particles of matter, which have precise locations in space, and interact with each other through contiguity.
Oh.

You might enjoy this by Bertrand Russell
http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~philos/MindDict/neutralmonism.html

To quote a bit ... matter has become altogether too ghostly to be used as an adequate stick with which to beat the mind. Matter in motion, which used to seem so unquestionable, turns out to be a concept quite inadequate for the needs of physics.
 
ZWord said:
You can't just say materialism is science.
:confused:

The World is composed of matter and energy. Matter and energy are the same thing, kind of, as expressed in the wonderful E=mc^2

Science looks to material causes for material phenomena. That's it really.
 
ZWord said:
In fact there have been a lot of arguments about whether light is made of matter, and materialist scientists have generally held that it was made out of "photons" by which they meant tiny particles of matter that were emitted from light-emitting objects at the speed of light. And in fact this is true, at least some of the time, and you can even show detectors detecting single particles of light, which is very satisfactory for a materialist account of reality, but the problem is sometimes the particles don't behave at all like particles. --but saying assertively- "light is not made out of matter", would have put you against the scientific consensus of the twentieth century.
Nope.

By the 1830s, most optics-oriented members of the scientific community recognized the power of the wave theory for explaining contemporary experiments; emissionists could boast no such success ... Decisive confirmation of the wave theory of light would wait until 1887/88
http://www.victorianweb.org/science/fresnel.html
 
errr...not sure if I've the mental ammo to post here, but I've always thought that light is one of the few (if only) things that is both a wave and a particle? (or that it's a particle that acts like a wave)

How wrong am I? (or not)
 
iROBOT said:
errr...not sure if I've the mental ammo to post here, but I've always thought that light is one of the few (if only) things that is both a wave and a particle?

How wrong am I? (or not)

'Wave' and 'Particle' are antiquated terms :)

Not really, they're still pretty useful. But no, it's not just light. You can even get 'matter' to do it. You can get a stream of neutrons to exhibit wavelike properties (eg, you can do the double slit experiment with them) - I'm not sure if it's been done with whole atoms though...
 
iROBOT said:
errr...not sure if I've the mental ammo to post here, but I've always thought that light is one of the few (if only) things that is both a wave and a particle? (or that it's a particle that acts like a wave)

How wrong am I? (or not)

If I recall correctly I think everything is a wave and a particle. It just that wave-like properties only become apparent when particles are what scientists call "very very small". There's an well written up example somewhere of calculating the wavelength of a speeding bullet, turns out the wavelength is very very small, much to small to impart wave properties on the bullet so the bullet appears as a discrete particle. I think.
 
I remember doin a A level twenty five years ago when they pointed out that Darwin got it wrong....not the idea but the practicalities

Evolution take place all the time it is only in periods of hardship do any benificial mutation become essential for survival...thus only critters with that mutation survive changing the species

I fucking hate Blair for insisting that creationism will get tought in a biology class

It is a science based on empirical knowedge... not the belief that god is great & how can we change the world to suit that purpose
 
Jonti said:
Nope.

By the 1830s, most optics-oriented members of the scientific community recognized the power of the wave theory for explaining contemporary experiments; emissionists could boast no such success ... Decisive confirmation of the wave theory of light would wait until 1887/88
http://www.victorianweb.org/science/fresnel.html

But you're just exposing your ignorance, or else just being dishonest.

Because later, at the beginning of the 20th century, the particle theory of light was considered probably better.

"At the close of the 19th century, the case for atomic theory, that matter was made of particulate objects or atoms, was well established. Electricity, first thought to be a fluid, was understood to consist of particles called electrons, . In brief, it was understood that much of nature was made of particles. At the same time, waves were well understood, together with wave phenomena such as diffraction and interference. Light was believed to be a wave, as Thomas Young's double-slit experiment and effects such as Fraunhofer diffraction had clearly demonstrated the wave-like nature of light.

But as the 20th century turned, problems had emerged with this viewpoint. The photoelectric effect, as analyzed in 1905 by Albert Einstein, demonstrated that light also possessed particle-like properties. Later on, the diffraction of electrons would be predicted and experimentally confirmed, thus showing that electrons must have wave-like properties in addition to particle properties."

The thing is, though, this was in relation to whoever it was saying that it's been known for ages that light isn't made out of matter, - was that the end of materialism- ? apparently not. Should it have been? Not necessarily. Because what you're overlooking is that a wave is a much higher-level concept than a particle, it's a metaphor, or an analogy, like describing electricity as a fluid. Describing something as a wave tells you that it behaves like a wave, but it doesn't tell you what it's made out of. The thing about waves is that they require a medium to carry them.

Scientists knew about waves from studying them in water. It turns out that you can better understand the behaviour of liquids by modelling them as waves within a medium of particles, because the behaviour of the waves remain unaltered irrespective of which particles are actually doing what. Describing light as a wave tells you, it behaves -like that, but it tells you nothing about the medium through which the wave is propagated. And really, to fully understand the phenomenon, you need to know about the medium. The idea of waves that travel through no physical medium doesn't sound very materialist to me, and it doesn't sound very explanatory either.

So in a way, if you were a materialist and you believed light was a wave, you were looking for a medium in which the light waves could exist. Unless of course you think it's possible for waves to exist without any physical medium, which seems unlikely. -(In space, no-one can hear you scream-)

Then the problem becomes - If light is waves carried through a medium of particles, then what particles, they must be very small. But even the smallest particles people knew about then, - electrons were turning out to behave like waves in some respects, suggesting then that the electrons must be made out of far far smaller particles wthin which the wave that creates the appearance of a particle called an electron manifests.

And this rabbithole probably has no bottom. If you could get close enough to the particles that make up an electron, you'd probably find they were also waves within a still smaller medium.

Infinity goes both ways. Or at least - this is an idea that has proved impossible to falsify. :eek:

(quotes from wikipedia)
 
Zword. This idea of materialism = "everything is matter" is all very well but I don't think anybody ever actually believed such a thing.

Gravity. Energy. To name but two which have been around for a very long time and which nobody used to think were matter (it turns out that energy and matter are the same thing).

If materialists believe everything is matter then none of them exist.

What do you call the people who believe in the existance of observable phenomena?
 
Matter = energy = matter and we've known that for 100 years or so. So, really there's no such thing as materialism any more. That's fine, because we've discovered that the material world has other things besides matter in it. I guess we just need a new word. How about 'naturalism' ?

And 'particle' is as much a metaphor as 'wave' - when you start trying to think about these things in terms of macro-scale 'particles' and 'waves' (billiard balls, ripples in a pond), then it all starts to break down. Hell, the whole of science is a metaphor, really.
 
replicabilism :cool:

I think this quote from Bohr might be helpful to some:

"...the wave function [of the primordial source of the universe] is not real; it is simply a device used in the mathematics of quantum theory. Indeed, it is a wave of probability rather than an oscillation of matter. What the wave function describes is the probability that a particle will be discovered in a particular region of space should a measurment be carried out.
 
Crispy said:
How about 'naturalism'?

That's what the creationists hate, so it's got something going for it :D

Crispy said:
Hell, the whole of natural language description science is a metaphor, really. Not the equations themselves.

Er, hostage to green-ink fortune, there. So a suggested edit for quoting purposes.

We can discuss the ontological status of the equations some other time :)
 
Fruitloop, I don't think I am confused, - if you can show how I am, go ahead, - if your head hurts, maybe there's something wrong with your head.

Gurrier, fair enough. Certainly- materialism - as I've described it is a fairly absurd worldview, and it should be surprising if anyone actually holds it. (I always thought you did though.) However, there is no doubt in my mind that it was and probably still is the default scientific worldview for a lot of scientists who never bothered to consider some philosophical questions,

From Wikipedia, - not that it's a final authority, but a reasonable benchmark for the normal way in which a word is used.

"In philosophy, materialism is that form of physicalism which holds that the only thing that can truly be said to exist is matter; that fundamentally, all things are composed of material and all phenomena are the result of material interactions. Science uses a working assumption, sometimes known as methodological naturalism, that observable events in nature are explained only by natural causes without assuming the existence or non-existence of the supernatural. As a theory, materialism belongs to the class of monist ontology. As such, it is different from ontological theories based on dualism or pluralism. In terms of singular explanations of the phenomenal reality, materialism stands in sharp contrast to idealism."

"What do you call people who believe in the existence of observable phenomena?"

Well, normally, I think they're called empiricists. But empiricism can take you in a lot of different directions. and it's more often led to idealism than realism. On the one hand, if you believe in the existence of observable phenomena, and you think that they have a real existence independent of you mind, then you're a naive realist (see wikipedia, naive realism) On the other hand, you can take the Humean viewpoint, (David Hume), that yes, the only things that exist are observable phenomena, - sensory impressions as he calls them, and ideas, which are copies of the sensory impressions, and he follows this viewpoint through logically, and is thought to show fairly convincingly that it leads to absolute skepticism.

Hume is very quotable: He's a witty writer, and in fact he's a pisstaker, but, philosophers don't often realise that. This is one of his classics, the conclusion to the enquiry..

"When we run over libraries persuaded of these principles, what havoc must we make? If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames; for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion."

You might like the sound of that, but if you were to actually read his book, you might be alarmed by the apparent degree of his skepticism.

In a way, you can read hume as a pisstake of Berkeley. who also thought that the only things that existed were observable phenomena, But rather than being a realist, this made him an idealist. As an empiricist, he believed the main way of acquiring knowledge was through perception, and seeing that perception was a mental process, he concluded that the only things we knew for certain existed were all mental processes, and so concluded that reality must be mind-dependent. (idealism)

This thread is just one of many concerning the debate about the existence of spirit, about what it's justifiable to believe and assert, and what counts as evidence for your opinions.

There is a view among people in general that science does not support the idea that spirit exists, and among many that science can refute the idea of spirit.

It's certainly true that science does not support the idea that spirit exists, but what I'm trying to show is that this is a historical accident, and science has no good grounds for not supporting it. The idea that science can refute the existence of spirit seems to me to be utterly absurd.
 
ZWord said:
Fruitloop, I don't think I am confused

That's just lack of self-awareness, though.

me said:
ZWord said:
You don't have to be a genius to see that if a light source emits two photons in opposite directions, each travelling at the speed of light, then in fact the two "particles" separate spatially at :eek: twice the speed of light.

No, you don't have to be a genius. You have to be a nutter engaged in the absurd exercise of trying to claim that science justifies magic. .

And you have to have failed to understand thing one about relativity - which is precisely that this is not the case.

here
 
ZWord said:
There is a view among people in general that science does not support the idea that spirit exists, and among many that science can refute the idea of spirit.

It's certainly true that science does not support the idea that spirit exists, but what I'm trying to show is that this is a historical accident, and science has no good grounds for not supporting it. The idea that science can refute the existence of spirit seems to me to be utterly absurd.
If you are interested in demonstrating the existance of spirit, science is not your friend.

It has zero explanatory power and there is no evidence for its existance. Hence it goes into the box with the invisible pink unicorns and our 12 dimensional furry friend.

Do you believe in our 12 dimensional furry friend?
 
What a side-splitting joke.

So If you're not a materialist, what do you think everything is made out of?
what do you think light is made out of, for instance?

And if light is not made out of "matter", then why is it affected by gravity~?
 
ZWord said:
If you're not a materialist, what do you think everything is made out of? what do you think light is made out of, for instance?
Why, everything is made by the grace of our 12 dimensional furry friend of course! If you can't see that then you must be ignorant or dishonest. :cool:
 
It is perfectly clear that *concepts* exist, that they determine human perceptions of the world, and that they have an internal logic of development. They are the modern world's way of discussing "spirit." All forms of materialism are undialectical, and hence illogical, as are all forms of idealism. Matter/idea is a mutually definitive binary opposition, and neither term can exist for us withoutht its constitutive polarity. That's what I reckon anyway.
 
Back
Top Bottom