Croydon borough history, photos, stories etc

[friendofdorothy]

This is a thread for our local history chat. Post you old photos, maps, queries here.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'd like to know more about the croydon canal. There is a lovely installation in South Norwood on the pavement between the clock tower and N junction station.

 

[friendofdorothy]

It names the areas the canal went through



Then SOUTH NORWOOD, ANERLEY, SYDENHAM, FOREST HILL, BROCKLEY, then -

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I'd like to know more about the croydon canal.

a fair bit of it is now under the railway between bermondsey / new cross-ish and west croydon (the canal was bought out by the railway company) although the railway was able to follow a more direct line so there's a handful of bits of canal or towpath left.

i did wonder about trying to pick up a few bits of it on a walk before a croydon urban meet, but came to the conclusion there probably wasn't enough left close enough together to try it.

much more on London Canals website

NLS map collection centred on Croydon here - you can zoom in and out, go to different editions / scales of maps, and fade in / out of current satellite view with the controls to the left.

and at a tangent, a page on Central Croydon railway station (closed 1890, and where the town hall is now) here.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Then SOUTH NORWOOD, ANERLEY, SYDENHAM, FOREST HILL, BROCKLEY, then -

at deptford creek, though.

the croydon canal branched off the grand surrey canal* in the bermondsey patch, it didn't come off the thames at deptford creek.

about here - in an alternative outcome, this would have been a south london 'little venice' rather than being just down the road from the lewisham council tip...

* - originally intended to stretch from the surrey docks to portsmouth. it didn't get any further than the walworth road, with a branch down to peckham...

 

[Elpenor]

Does Ruskin House count?

 

[friendofdorothy]

a fair bit of it is now under the railway between bermondsey / new cross-ish and west croydon (the canal was bought out by the railway company) although the railway was able to follow a more direct line so there's a handful of bits of canal or towpath left.

i did wonder about trying to pick up a few bits of it on a walk before a croydon urban meet, but came to the conclusion there probably wasn't enough left close enough together to try it.

much more on London Canals website

NLS map collection centred on Croydon here - you can zoom in and out, go to different editions / scales of maps, and fade in / out of current satellite view with the controls to the left.

and at a tangent, a page on Central Croydon railway station (closed 1890, and where the town hall is now) here.

Great links thanks.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Does Ruskin House count?

where / what is it?

edit:
is it this one Ruskin House - Wikipedia

 

[friendofdorothy]

at deptford creek, though.

the croydon canal branched off the grand surrey canal* in the bermondsey patch, it didn't come off the thames at deptford creek.

about here - in an alternative outcome, this would have been a south london 'little venice' rather than being just down the road from the lewisham council tip...

* - originally intended to stretch from the surrey docks to portsmouth. it didn't get any further than the walworth road, with a branch down to peckham...

I'm working my way through the local history section of the library - What I recall is it was opened in 1809 and that the ponds in the park at the top of norwood hill acted as a reservoir for it. The canal was short lived and not a commercial success. The railways bought it in 1836 and it became the basis of the railway line. I'll try to post some more pics.

 

[friendofdorothy]

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I'm working my way through the local history section of the library - What I recall is it was opened in 1809 and that the ponds in the park at the top of norwood hill acted as a reservoir for it. The canal was short lived and not a commercial success. The railways bought it in 1836 and it became the basis of the railway line. I'll try to post some more pics.

there was a bit of talk about the remains of the canal on the croydon thread a couple of months ago

The lake in north croydon - South Norwood Lake and Grounds - was built as a reservoir to feed the croydon canal.

There used to be boat trips on it - the lake, not the canal - back in the day, and you see the rusted remains of the lift that was used to get the boat in the lake.

There is now a sailing club, and it’s pretty impressive to see the sailing dinghies (or whatever they are) out and about at weekends.

There is also lots of waterfowl there, for those who enjoy that kind of thing, including a bunch of baby Egyptian geese (seems a bit late in the year for them…) and herons and grebe and coots and moorhen and occasional swans (they don’t usually survive the fucking anglers who leave fishing line in which the swans get tangled) as well as varieties of ducks.

And there is a bit of stagnant canal in Betts Park. Mostly renowned for knife attacks, I am afraid.

Can’t think of a pub near either of those, unfortunately.

But there remain a few pubs which mark where the canal used to be.

We once had an Urban meet up in one of those - the Ship - not long before it closed down.

There is one called the Jolly Sailor which has reopened recently, if anyone wants to give that a go. Walking distance from both the lake and Betts Park. Close to Norwood Junction station (that line used to be the canal). When the station first opened it was called the Jolly Sailor.

and a bit of the towpath (where it didn't quite match the current railway line) in forest hill

 

[friendofdorothy]

It says it joined the grand surrey canal but its not clear grom this exactly where.

 

[friendofdorothy]

The places mentioned on the pavement:

 

[friendofdorothy]

 

[friendofdorothy]

at deptford creek, though.

I was misled by this. But the canal did connect to the thames via the creek so not completely inaccurate.

 

[friendofdorothy]

What i cant see is where did it start. It says Selhurst on the pavement and has a picture of selhurst woods but how did the canal carry goods to or from Croydon? If it followed the route of present day tracks down from south Norwood - as Towpath way and Canal walk would indicate it did. - where did it end?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

What i cant see is where did it start. It says Selhurst on the pavement and has a picture of selhurst woods but how did the canal carry goods to or from Croydon? If it followed the route of present day tracks down from south Norwood - as Towpath way and Canal walk would indicate it did. - where did it end?

there's a one page map here that shows part of the surrey canal (which fed to the croydon canal)

the end of the canal was a canal basin about where west croydon railway station is now.

I was misled by this. But the canal did connect to the thames via the creek so not completely inaccurate.

i'm still not convinced. deptford creek is the bit that separates greenwich from deptford. the surrey canal didn't connect to that...

 

[friendofdorothy]

there's a one page map here that shows part of the surrey canal (which fed to the croydon canal)

the end of the canal was a canal basin about where west croydon railway station is now.

fab - will check that out. Can we trust the accuracy of the google map?

i'm still not convinced. deptford creek is the bit that separates greenwich from deptford. the surrey canal didn't connect to that...

Did the people who carved the pavement, not do their home work? Hard to tippex that...

The map bit (3 slabs - post #10 & #12 ) isn't very clear - hard to tell what most of those lines are supposed to be - presume they are roads maybe other canals?
It credits the North Downs Press 1984.

Think I need to delve deeper in the local history dept at the library again.

 

[Epona]

View attachment 455967

Would that be The Bird In Hand where N worked for a while? Near Forest Hill station.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Another history question:

Anyone know about these plaques and who put them up?
they are on side of costa coffee on the road opposite the clock tower in SoNo.
Are there any more of them?

Interesting that one says suffragist and the other suffragette.

 

[Maggot]

The places mentioned on the pavement:


View attachment 455966

I've never heard of Anerley Pleasure Gardens before. Were they on the site of Betts Park, where a section of the canal is still visible? The Anerley Arms is still there, it's a Sam Smiths pub.

 

[Elpenor]

where / what is it?

edit:
is it this one Ruskin House - Wikipedia

Yes, in south Croydon. My mates Mum told me it was something to do with the communist party at one point. She knows lots about the local history of the area, if I am ever that way again I’ll have to ask her some more about it!

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

What i cant see is where did it start. It says Selhurst on the pavement and has a picture of selhurst woods but how did the canal carry goods to or from Croydon? If it followed the route of present day tracks down from south Norwood - as Towpath way and Canal walk would indicate it did. - where did it end?

Pretty sure it ran down the tracks to east Croydon. My last house was a canal side workers cottage. That was roughly between selhurst and east Croydon and right by the tracks. It's now an odd little bank of houses surrounded by an industrial estate with them all facing the 'wrong' way.
I was once told the workers needed to be near the canal to do certain tasks, a bit like lock keepers.

 

[Dystopiary]

friendofdorothy and ATOMIC SUPLEX There's a bit about the Croydon Canal here.

Croydon Canal

 

[brogdale]

Shameless plug of my 2016 iC piece about the Anarchists of Waddon & Duppas Hill...

Croydon owes a debt to War and Peace author Tolstoy

JONNY BROGDALE on how 19th century philanthropy turned a landmark local pub into a hostel and helped to feed the poor, all paid for by sales of some of the world’s most famous books The good …

insidecroydon.com

 

[friendofdorothy]

friendofdorothy and ATOMIC SUPLEX There's a bit about the Croydon Canal here.

Croydon Canal

Thank you!

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Interesting that one says suffragist and the other suffragette.

i ought to know this, but didn't some of the campaigners for womens' right to vote call themselves one or the other? was it those who advocated only peaceful and lawful means / those who were prepared to break windows and so on?

 

[Epona]

i ought to know this, but didn't some of the campaigners for womens' right to vote call themselves one or the other? was it those who advocated only peaceful and lawful means / those who were prepared to break windows and so on?

I think you're right, the Suffragettes were the militant direct action group compared to the Suffragists, who were more into peaceful political requests.
iirc.
(Interesting isn't it which one ended up being more widely remembered)

 

[Puddy_Tat]

which reminds me - i'm not sure i ever followed up from the conversation in lewisham, but i never found anything to confirm the story i'd heard that 'the authorities' had discouraged makers of womens' clothes from including pockets that could be used for carrying stones, so i think it may have been an urban myth.

although i did find this that says that some WSPU members added pockets for this purpose.