Cold fusion - explain please

[madzone]

Yes. Around 6-12 months energy parback IIRC

Really? Hmmm... I'm still not won over The one that's going up next door isn't even going to make them self sufficient apparently, they're selling it back to the grid or somesuch. I dunno, I don't know enough about it but if I was putting a monster like that up and blotting the landscape it would have to be for an extremely good reason

That's a value judgement with no straight answer. Personally, I'd prefer to see themm in desolate places and offshore platforms.

Is that possible?

No

Wouldn't your second comment indicate otherwise?

 

[teuchter]

Hmmm....we'll ahve to agree to disagree on 'fuck the landscape'

My issue with them is that they're springing up everywhere - on private land. I don't so much mind the farms but the single ones that people are putting up near their houses make my tits itch. I just think it's a bit short sighted.

The solution is for all you country-dwellers to move to the city and live more efficiently. Then we won't need so many turbines. And you won't be there to complain about them anyway.

 

[madzone]

I've heard wave generators touted as the better option a few times...

We're getting the Wave Hub at Hayle soon, I think.

Surfers have already been complaining

 

[madzone]

The solution is for all you country-dwellers to move to the city and live more efficiently. Then we won't need so many turbines. And you won't be there to complain about them anyway.

How do you 'live more efficiently' in the city, then?

 

[DotCommunist]

on a side note

I like these, the design is elegant imo, almost retro-sci fi. Wouldn't be out of place on the set of the original Metropolis

 

[madzone]

on a side note

I like these, the design is elegant imo, almost retro-sci fi. Wouldn't be out of place on the set of the original Metropolis

The ones I've seen aren't that pretty

 

[spacemonkey]

They work too. It's not an either-or situation with renewables though, we need to use them all. And even then we'd never hope to replace fossil fuel capacity, so serious reductions in energy use would be needed too.

If we want to have our current lifestyles and economy and cut out CO2 and avoid relying on other countries and keep every hill and beach and river free of power plants, then a technological miracle in the form of cheap easy fusioin is our only saviour. Otherwise, compromises will just have to be made. Cook the planet, use much less energy, kill 9 out of every 10 people. That sort of thing

The consumption vs renewable production tables from 'Sustainable Energy without the Hot Air' really rammed home the problem in my mind.

37kWh/d - Heating and Cooling
30kWh/d - Jet Flights
40kW/d - Cars

etc...

To even come close to matching these figures we'd need to industrialise the entire countryside and coastline and build another 30 nuclear powerstations

 

[Crispy]

Really? Hmmm... I'm still not won over The one that's going up next door isn't even going to make them self sufficient apparently, they're selling it back to the grid or somesuch. I dunno, I don't know enough about it but if I was putting a monster like that up and blotting the landscape it would have to be for an extremely good reason



Is that possible?



Wouldn't your second comment indicate otherwise?

Ok, so there's no better design of machine - the only choice is where to put them The UK has lots of experience in offshore platforms, after drilling for oil in the north sea, so this should be a priority. But the maths is uncomfortable. If we built a turbine on every hill, dammed every river, surrounded the coast with wave generators, put solar on every rooftop, it still wouldn't be enough to replace our coal and gas power plants.

 

[madzone]

Ok, so there's no better design of machine - the only choice is where to put them The UK has lots of experience in offshore platforms, after drilling for oil in the north sea, so this should be a priority. But the maths is uncomfortable. If we built a turbine on every hill, dammed every river, surrounded the coast with wave generators, put solar on every rooftop, it still wouldn't be enough to replace our coal and gas power plants.

So, let's not bother Let's enjoy the pretty countryside and go out with a bang

 

[Crispy]

It's an option
Your round then?

 

[teuchter]

How do you 'live more efficiently' in the city, then?

Less petrol etc because you don't have to travel so far to work and the shops and so forth. More efficient use of services generally because everything's closer together. Public transport is much more viable and therefore is available and gets used. Terraced houses lose less heat. Stuff like that.

Have a read of this for example - http://www.energybulletin.net/node/3757

If you're farming or something like that, then it's a bit different of course.

 

[madzone]

It's an option
Your round then?

You know I am!!

 

[madzone]

If you're farming or something like that, then it's a bit different of course.

Thank you. I'll stay here then and leave you in the smelly city, if you don't mind

 

[Gromit]

If we built a turbine on every hill, dammed every river, surrounded the coast with wave generators, put solar on every rooftop, it still wouldn't be enough to replace our coal and gas power plants.

Really?

I thought people with solar on rooftop often sold excess to the national grid?

Is it the energy demands of industry and businesses that kills us?

 

[Crispy]

Well solar on the rooftop is ok if you're a energy conserving ecohippie - forget your big fridgefreezer and dishwasher and bread machine and fan heater and so on. But you're right, it's industry/offices and transport that make up the majority. This pie is for Scotland, but the trend is similar everywhere.

 

[teuchter]

Although if we could use a portion of the Sahara and cover it in PVs, that could supply enough for the whole world. Or something like that.

 

[teuchter]

Well solar on the rooftop is ok if you're a energy conserving ecohippie - forget your big fridgefreezer and dishwasher and bread machine and fan heater and so on.

Are you sure? I thought the consensus nowadays was that you can fairly comfortably supply enough for a normal household using PVs on the roof. As I understand it the greater concern is the payback time. But I may be wrong, you hear so many people saying completely different things about this.

 

[dylanredefined]

Cant see why we aren't going down renewable path to a larger extent we are sourronded by sea so wave generators seem obvious .If they break not going to have a disater .Not going to run out of sea .

 

[kyser_soze]

The one that's going up next door isn't even going to make them self sufficient apparently, they're selling it back to the grid or somesuch

That would imply they're generating enough to be self-sufficient and export electricity into the national grid - i.e. they generate more than they need.

Although if we could use a portion of the Sahara and cover it in PVs, that could supply enough for the whole world. Or something like that.

Solar furnace style generation - 300sqkm in North African desert could power Europe BUT it's not energy independence; we'd still be reliant on importing energy, so the politics wouldn't change (altho personally I think it would tie NA into the EU and so be a very different proposition from getting oil from the ME).

Then you've got issues concerning transmission (altho again there are ways around it - build ships that are basically giant rechargable batteries that lug leccy around same as the supertankers today, super conducting cabling etc)...still, I reckon solar furnace style stuff on a huge scale is a good way forward.

 

[Gromit]

I though the main problem with Solar is that its not AC or its 6 volt or something like that. I forget.

But basically for houses to be self suffient you'd have to change all your equipment to equipment that likes being run from a battery supply.

Don't shout at me if I'm wrong though. I haven't researched any of this. Just partially remembering a TV show.

 

[TheDave]

Although if we could use a portion of the Sahara and cover it in PVs, that could supply enough for the whole world. Or something like that.

There is a formative plan to do something similar, but not with Photovoltaic cells but with huge mirrors focusing the light/heat at either salt or water to power turbines. It's preferred because it could the steam could be stored and then released when necessary.

It could potentially provide enough energy for the entire of North Africa and Europe.

 

[spacemonkey]

Cant see why we aren't going down renewable path to a larger extent we are sourronded by sea so wave generators seem obvious .If they break not going to have a disater .Not going to run out of sea .

Wave power is nice. Lancaster Univeristy are working on some ingenious devices. Probably great for the powering the odd remote scottish island.

But it will only ever provide a tiny fraction of our national energy needs.

 

[kyser_soze]

There is a formative plan to do something similar, but not with Photovoltaic cells but with huge mirrors focusing the light/heat at either salt or water to power turbines. It's preferred because it could the steam could be stored and then released when necessary.

It could potentially provide enough energy for the entire of North Africa and Europe.

*ahem*

Solar furnace style generation - 300sqkm in North African desert could power Europe BUT it's not energy independence; we'd still be reliant on importing energy, so the politics wouldn't change (altho personally I think it would tie NA into the EU and so be a very different proposition from getting oil from the ME).

 

[TheDave]

We're going to be importing energy now matter which way we turn really. It all depends on who we want to be importing from and what how they produce their energy. I'd rather be in the pocket of North Africa than Russia or the Middle East.

 

[kyser_soze]

We're going to be importing energy now matter which way we turn really. It all depends on who we want to be importing from and what how they produce their energy. I'd rather be in the pocket of North Africa than Russia or the Middle East.

Well indeed...

 

[teuchter]

We're going to be importing energy now matter which way we turn really. It all depends on who we want to be importing from and what how they produce their energy. I'd rather be in the pocket of North Africa than Russia or the Middle East.

What's preferable about north africa?

 

[kyser_soze]

What's preferable about north africa?

Sunny and close by if you're talking about massive solar generation for the EU.

 

[teuchter]

Sunny and close by if you're talking about massive solar generation for the EU.

I thought you meant in some sort of political way.

 

[kyser_soze]

Yeah, i realised that's what you meant about 3 minutes after posting

TBH it's not 'preferable' to be reliant on any 3rd party source of energy, at least with the world the way it is politically...

 

[TheDave]

Lesser of 3 evils I suppose. If we perfected "clean coal" and carbon capture technologies we could re-open the mines here, I think there's a couple hundred years worth of coal left that could tide us over till Fusion power is perfected or something better comes along.