CIA flights raise complex debate

[moono]

CIA flights raise complex debate

As I see it, the purpose of government is to protect its citizens. The debate is whether that protection is best served by subscribing to international anti-torture legislation or allowing a torture free-for-all.

 

[TAE]

I think the answer is obviously "no torture can be permitted". If you allow torture in the most extreme case (the ticking bomb scenario) then it is far too easy to extend the justification to all kinds of other situations.

The issue of the CIA flights is also making waves in Germany following this Washing Post report suggesting that the german government knew about them:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476.html

 

[moono]

The United States is a signatory to the UN Convention;

The UN Convention on Torture

The United States acted, she said, in accordance with its legal obligations, among which is the 1984 UN "Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment or Punishment. This defines torture as follows: "Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4499528.stm

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It's not really a "complex debate", though, is it? The US wants to make it into one, but the simple fact is that they've been using "rendition" to send people to other countries so that they can be tortured, in a way that allows a "complex debate" to be constructed around the issue which wouldn't be possible if they did it on US soil.

 

[moono]

I fully agree. The 'complex debate' appears to concern the preferred methods of torturers.

 

[Kaka Tim]

One aspect that seems to be overlooked is that one of the purposes of torture is intimidate anyone thinking of taking on those carrying it out - in this case the United States. Why else release those photes of G-Bay? Its letting your enemies know what will happen to them.

The denials, smokescreens and sophistry (i.e 'stress and duress' techniques not being 'officially' torture) are for public consumption and international PR. The jihadi groups are in no doubt as to the truth of the torture gulag allegations and the US is quite happy with that.

 

[Fingers]

In my view it is not complex at all, definitions and words are changed by Washington to remove the torture they use from the scope whilst leaving them enough wriggle room to condemn other countries for similar practices.

 

[Jazzz]

To be fair to the article linked, the 'complexity' of the debate referred to is one over the legality of these flights, not whether it's ok to zap the mad mullah's testicles.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

It's not really a "complex debate", though, is it? The US wants to make it into one, but the simple fact is that they've been using "rendition" to send people to other countries so that they can be tortured, in a way that allows a "complex debate" to be constructed around the issue which wouldn't be possible if they did it on US soil.

Rendition?

 

[moono]

To be fair to the article linked, the 'complexity' of the debate referred to is one over the legality of these flights, not whether it's ok to zap the mad mullah's testicles.

Well, the legality/illegality of the flights is determined by the end use.

To continue the flights the Americans have two choices; tell the Europeans to like it or lump it or allow observers into the 'secret' prisons to view conditions for themselves.

 

[bristol_citizen]

Rendition?

Sounds a bit like a TV game show doesn't it? It's the new word for torture.
There's 'Extraordinary Rendition' too. This means exporting torture abroad.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Sounds a bit like a TV game show doesn't it? It's the new word for torture.
There's 'Extraordinary Rendition' too. This means exporting torture abroad.

Oh right, more Orwellian bollox like collateral damage meaning killing civilians...

 

[moono]

I saw an extraordinary rendition of 'A Christmas Carol' yesterday. They tortured it from start to finish.