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Brixton news, rumours and general chat - April 2018

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I note Jerry "let's keep any affordable housing to none/bare minimum" Knight is off altering his plans again. There's just one rain filled planning notice on Coldharbour Lane and that ran out on the 9th Feb.

Funny I didn't notice it before because I always look out for these things...

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Interesting 15-20 minutes of the Channel 4 News on Black Men's mental health filmed in Brixton just now. Several minutes of interviews with members & the CEO of the Mosaic Clubhouse in Effra Road.

Things took a turn for the controversial when the presenter interviewed Cllr Jackie Dyer, who in a sort of Linda Bellos throw-away line said black men don't seek help for mental health issues because the community belief is you would end up dead. There was also an interview with a black therapist who said that heavy drug treatment and even ECT was administered to black patients against best practice.

After the location film we got a studio discussion between Jackie Dyer, Krishan Guru-Murthy and and a black mental health campaigner from Camden. Krishan immediately brought up the treatment leads to death which gave Cllr Dyer (also of "Black Thrive") the space to go on at length about how black mental health was being undermined by centuries of prejudice and discrimination.

The black Camden doctor agreed about the discrimination but sought some sort of solution whereby all sections of the community and the health service work together etc.

Quite interesting. I may re-watch on Channel 4 +1
 
Things took a turn for the controversial when the presenter interviewed Cllr Jackie Dyer, who in a sort of Linda Bellos throw-away line said black men don't seek help for mental health issues because the community belief is you would end up dead.
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What was considered "controversial"?

seanrigg1.jpg
 
Jackie seemed rather irate. I wonder if the C4 people got her back up by saying something which wasn't transmitted. It seemed a very muddled piece. They did say that black men have a ten times higher incidence of psychotic illness than white men but the analysis of possible causes was a bit rubbish. I think there was some talk of white doctors not understanding black men's problems. But no mention of drug use, or the link between poverty and mental illness, or the churches which teach that psychiatry is the work of the devil. I would also have liked to hear more about Jackie's point that a stay in a psych ward is seen as lethal. Such an important issue but I'm not sure we learned much apart from the 'ten times higher' statistic. I think it was ridiculous to give the story to Jordan Jarrett Bryan. He's a sports correspondent.
 
"I think it was ridiculous to give the story to Jordan Jarrett Bryan. He's a sports correspondent." Jordan has form:

Police and UKBA to ransack Brixton (Thursday 6th March)

In 2014, he fabricated a vox pop in Brixton. The story escalated through Brixton Buzz, Buzzfeeed and the national press, C4 withdrew the report, and Ofcom investigated, with a rather critical verdict.

It seems to me that JJB is deployed when C4 needs a racism-flavoured story. The segment in question was a mess, and KGM did not challenge any of the unsupported assertions made. I find it particularly troubling that a Lambeth Councillor is promulgating, rather than challenging, the idea that NHS mental health care is life-threatening for black men. I wonder what advice she gives to constituents when they seek help.
 
David Clapson said:
Jackie seemed rather irate. I wonder if the C4 people got her back up by saying something which wasn't transmitted. It seemed a very muddled piece. They did say that black men have a ten times higher incidence of psychotic illness than white men but the analysis of possible causes was a bit rubbish. I think there was some talk of white doctors not understanding black men's problems. But no mention of drug use, or the link between poverty and mental illness, or the churches which teach that psychiatry is the work of the devil. I would also have liked to hear more about Jackie's point that a stay in a psych ward is seen as lethal. Such an important issue but I'm not sure we learned much apart from the 'ten times higher' statistic. I think it was ridiculous to give the story to Jordan Jarrett Bryan. He's a sports correspondent.
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You make some good points here. The extraordinary thing is they have been asking about the relatively much higher incidence of psychosis and forceable detention (sectioning) of black men for many years. I have a VHS cassette of a Horizon programme I recorded in 1989. But no conclusion 30 years on.

Jackie Dyer has points to make - but to me she seems to be a person who is inclined to give a performance. I've seen her at a conference on mental health issues at the Town Hall. She can dominate proceedings and hold an audience with no trouble at all. As you saw Krishnan Guru-Murthy homed straight in on her startling comment.She stimulated discussion - but how about anyone watching who was wondering about seeking psychiatric help. It could confirm their fears in an unhelpful way.

GarveyLives I think the Sean Rigg case demonstrates how mental health treatment can fail. I did not know Sean Rigg, though I know someone who did. From what was said of his medication in the hostel he was staying in before his death it seems possible to me that he was on medication which was excessive or inappropriate, which led him to stop taking it (become non-compliant as a psychiatrist would say in their authoritarian way). You know the rest - there is a whole thread about Sean Rigg starting in 2008 here. We have both posted on it.

The actions of the police in Sean Rigg's case can not be defended - but I assume you or indeed Jackie Dyer are not suggesting black men who are suffering mental health symptoms should not request help in case of death?
 
If we're going to be constructive about black men's mental health we need to persuade them to ask their GP for help while their condition is mild. They don't go because of the stigma, fear of being seen as a failure, loss of status etc. The obsession with status is what you get after decades of racism and no opportunities. So the root cause of this epidemic of black psychosis is the racism of white society. No easy answers. I have no idea how to persuade young black guys to go to their GP more often. I'm sure that more black male GPs and psychiatrists would be a big help. How do we make that happen?
 
This is something our prospective Councillors are happy to use to promote their own cause - can't see anything they are likely to do will improve anyone's mental health...

 
Maybe their strategy is to extract more funds for mental health services by frightening people with the spectre of streets filled with black psychos.
 
alex_ said:
And what do we do for the next 10-15 years while we get them through the education system and medical school ?

Alex
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How about mobilizing black women to drag their male friends and relatives to the GP?

Or a sort of buddy/mentor system where white guys go and look for unhappy black guys and talk to them? I just tried this in Starbucks and it went quite well.
 
ricbake said:
This is something our prospective Councillors are happy to use to promote their own cause - can't see anything they are likely to do will improve anyone's mental health...
Click to expand...

The thing that sticks in my gullet about this Tweet is that it was actually the two Labour councils (Lambeth and Southwark) and the Labour secretary of state who closed the Emergency clinic at the Maudsley in 2008.

The reality is that the only time any change in service level UPWARDS is introduced it has to be seen as innovative. For example the Mosaic Clubhouse, shown in the film, which was opened as a new innovative project in around 1995.

I can't think of any other new services that have been introduced since then.

Ironically had the Emergency Clinic been turned into a Gym it might have fulfilled some therapeutic service, given the client group. Maybe Gym Dickson should be told?
 
I never knew the Maudsley had such a clinic. Never heard of any MH hospital having one. Is there something about them for me to read? I've always been told (as a patient) that in an emergency you go to A&E. There is always a pysch on call who will see you.
 
David Clapson said:
I never knew the Maudsley had such a clinic. Never heard of any MH hospital having one. Is there something about them for me to read? I've always been told (as a patient) that in an emergency you go to A&E. There is always a pysch on call who will see you.
Click to expand...
Back in the 1990s the Maudsley sent a CPN out to assess the situation if they were called about a crisis and if necessary took you in. Don't know how widespread this was - but the Maudsley did this.

Throwing the onus on the person in trouble is surely part of the problem. I don't know what happens if you turns up at Kings saying you are depressed/suicidal/voices etc. If they treat you like someone with a cut finger you might have to wait, or be told to ring your GP in the morning.

This link comments on the scheduled closure: Maudsley psychiatric emergency clinic to close - Community Care

There is an options paper from 2005 written by or for Patrick Gillespie who was SLAM's Chief exec at the time. This claims it was not a money saving measure, rather a re-configuration of service (Libraries?)

It was hotly contested at the time by many users, MIND groups and other user groups and at least one councillor I think was chair of Scrutiny at the time.
http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/D...ormalconsultation document, November 2005.pdf
response to scrutiny here: http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/D...t committee Chair Councillor Angie Meader.pdf
Not being a SLAM staff member or archivist I have not been able to see any description of the service as such. I guess it might be in their annual reports prior to 2006?
 
CH1 said:
I don't know what happens if you turns up at Kings saying you are depressed/suicidal/voices etc.
Click to expand...

IME it's as described in my previous post. You have to wait for the psych to turn up, but they don't leave you in the waiting room. You get put in a room. Maybe they would stop you if you tried to leave.
 
David Clapson said:
If we're going to be constructive about black men's mental health we need to persuade them to ask their GP for help while their condition is mild. They don't go because of the stigma, fear of being seen as a failure, loss of status etc. The obsession with status is what you get after decades of racism and no opportunities. So the root cause of this epidemic of black psychosis is the racism of white society. No easy answers. I have no idea how to persuade young black guys to go to their GP more often. I'm sure that more black male GPs and psychiatrists would be a big help. How do we make that happen?
Click to expand...

I don't think this is just a black mens problem. The stigma of admitting to mental health issues applies to all men and women. Despite it being in media.

The idea that all black men are obsessed with status is a stereotype.

Going to one's GP with mental health issues doesn't work that well. I have done this. My GP is good and sympathetic. Wrote me a referral. It took a year and a half to get treatment. Not my GPs fault. Mental health is not taken seriously.

The problem is not people coming forward to get help it's that the mental health services have been cut. They aren't available.

I had given up on getting treatment. Medication and GP kept me going. Then got phone call out of the blue asking me to go to Thomas hospital. Got assessment then waited year for treatment course.

That's the real issue.

I can understand why people who would benefit from treatment fall between the cracks.

This is an uncaring society. That's how it is. It's unfair to blame minorities for not coming forward for treatment that's not there in reality. When it's in place then I will listen to arguments about minorities attitude to mental health.
 
CH1 said:
Back in the 1990s the Maudsley sent a CPN out to assess the situation if they were called about a crisis and if necessary took you in. Don't know how widespread this was - but the Maudsley did this.

Throwing the onus on the person in trouble is surely part of the problem. I don't know what happens if you turns up at Kings saying you are depressed/suicidal/voices etc. If they treat you like someone with a cut finger you might have to wait, or be told to ring your GP in the morning.

This link comments on the scheduled closure: Maudsley psychiatric emergency clinic to close - Community Care

There is an options paper from 2005 written by or for Patrick Gillespie who was SLAM's Chief exec at the time. This claims it was not a money saving measure, rather a re-configuration of service (Libraries?)

It was hotly contested at the time by many users, MIND groups and other user groups and at least one councillor I think was chair of Scrutiny at the time.
http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/Data/Statutory Joint Southwark Lambeth Health Scrutiny Committee/20060221/Agenda/Appendix A SLAM formalconsultation document, November 2005.pdf
response to scrutiny here: http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/Data/Statutory Joint Southwark Lambeth Health Scrutiny Committee/20060420/Agenda/SLaM covering letter tojoint committee Chair Councillor Angie Meader.pdf
Not being a SLAM staff member or archivist I have not been able to see any description of the service as such. I guess it might be in their annual reports prior to 2006?
Click to expand...

I was referred to SLAM. Well the mental health social worker was nice. He was desperate to get me off his caseload. Told me his section was being reorganised. I said you mean cut? He ,off the record, said yes that is what was happening. I got assessment interview at St Thomas. That was enough for SLAM to send letter to my GP saying I was off SLAM caseload as I was now St Thomas problem. Then waited another year after assessment for treatment.

There is a lot of tick boxing in mental health. Look we have assessed and referred you. Not our casework now.
 
Gramsci said:
I don't think this is just a black mens problem. The stigma of admitting to mental health issues applies to all men and women. Despite it being in media.

The idea that all black men are obsessed with status is a stereotype.

Going to one's GP with mental health issues doesn't work that well. I have done this. My GP is good and sympathetic. Wrote me a referral. It took a year and a half to get treatment. Not my GPs fault. Mental health is not taken seriously.

The problem is not people coming forward to get help it's that the mental health services have been cut. They aren't available.

I had given up on getting treatment. Medication and GP kept me going. Then got phone call out of the blue asking me to go to Thomas hospital. Got assessment then waited year for treatment course.

That's the real issue.

I can understand why people who would benefit from treatment fall between the cracks.

This is an uncaring society. That's how it is. It's unfair to blame minorities for not coming forward for treatment that's not there in reality. When it's in place then I will listen to arguments about minorities attitude to mental health.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. As was pointed out in the Channel 4 film about half the Clubhouse members/users are black. And half the staff probably.

You are dead right about delays in referrals and treatment. I experienced this myself in 2012/13. I was kind of "force referred" by a GP when I had my benefits cut off and I went off the meds in protest because I was not on free prescriptions. I'm bipolar and this stopping the lithium had the effect of sending me pleasurably high, and I resisted the consultant's suggestion I should be back on treatment.

Six months later I was badly depressed and the GP (different one) referred me in September 2012. I was offered an appointment in December. When I turned up it was "Oh! Dr Ruths is on jury service. Didn't anyone contact you?" [No they hadn't] So I had to wait till end of January 2013.

Good job I wasn't in train jumping mode.

BTW Dr Ruths (no longer there) is German. My current psychiatrist is Japanese. I have had Ghanaians, Nigerians, Spanish, Irish (both homophobic and non-homophobic), Sri Lankan also. Very unusual to get an English psychiatrist I must say (unless they are registrars doing the psychiatry part of a general medical qualification).

Maybe the NHS need to look at why psychiatry is second best for all these medical students we apparently train.
 
Gramsci said:
I don't think this is just a black mens problem. The stigma of admitting to mental health issues applies to all men and women. Despite it being in media.

The idea that all black men are obsessed with status is a stereotype.

Going to one's GP with mental health issues doesn't work that well. I have done this. My GP is good and sympathetic. Wrote me a referral. It took a year and a half to get treatment. Not my GPs fault. Mental health is not taken seriously.

The problem is not people coming forward to get help it's that the mental health services have been cut. They aren't available.

I had given up on getting treatment. Medication and GP kept me going. Then got phone call out of the blue asking me to go to Thomas hospital. Got assessment then waited year for treatment course.

That's the real issue.

I can understand why people who would benefit from treatment fall between the cracks.

This is an uncaring society. That's how it is. It's unfair to blame minorities for not coming forward for treatment that's not there in reality. When it's in place then I will listen to arguments about minorities attitude to mental health.
Click to expand...

Hmm. Isn't your answer a bit skewed by your own experience? Aren't you ignoring general trends? The 10x figure for psychosis is a fact. And IME almost everyone in our local psych ward at Lambeth Hospital is black. Black guys can see their GP pretty much when they want to, there's hardly any wait, and the GP can help lots of MH patients with talk and antidepressants. Of course that's only part of the answer but people who talk to their GP must be far less likely to end up on a secure ward. Not that I have any numbers to back that up. As for the status thing, yes it's a stereotype, but that's because there are so many people living up to it. The flash cars, the bling, the touchiness about respect. I know I'm starting to sound prejudiced here, but knocking about Coldharbour that's what I see. Have I got selective vision?
 
CH1 said:
I agree with this. As was pointed out in the Channel 4 film about half the Clubhouse members/users are black. And half the staff probably.

You are dead right about delays in referrals and treatment. I experienced this myself in 2012/13. I was kind of "force referred" by a GP when I had my benefits cut off and I went off the meds in protest because I was not on free prescriptions. I'm bipolar and this stopping the lithium had the effect of sending me pleasurably high, and I resisted the consultant's suggestion I should be back on treatment.

Six months later I was badly depressed and the GP (different one) referred me in September 2012. I was offered an appointment in December. When I turned up it was "Oh! Dr Ruths is on jury service. Didn't anyone contact you?" [No they hadn't] So I had to wait till end of January 2013.

Good job I wasn't in train jumping mode.

BTW Dr Ruths (no longer there) is German. My current psychiatrist is Japanese. I have had Ghanaians, Nigerians, Spanish, Irish (both homophobic and non-homophobic), Sri Lankan also. Very unusual to get an English psychiatrist I must say (unless they are registrars doing the psychiatry part of a general medical qualification).

Maybe the NHS need to look at why psychiatry is second best for all these medical students we apparently train.
Click to expand...

Ah, Florian Ruths! He was one of the good ones. But he seemed to end up pretty miserable/stressed himself. Then he disappeared. He tried to introduce mindfulness as a treatment for depression. I wondered whether that got him into unpleasant disputes within the NHS. Tall Poppy Syndrome can be vicious amongst medics. Apart from him, I've lost count of the psychs who I only saw once because they all seemed to be temping or leaving the area or something. I got so pissed off with having to give my complete history at every single effing appointment - it took over an hour, so I'd never get anything back in return, the appointment was over.
 
CH1 said:
Good job I wasn't in train jumping mode.

Maybe the NHS need to look at why psychiatry is second best for all these medical students we apparently train.
Click to expand...

If you were in train jumping mode (and survived) you may get appointment straight away. I remember had an appointment with SLAM. Got to SLAM on time. Waited. The social worker apologised and said he had to deal with a "crisis". Got the feeling that this is how it worked. People waiting months for treatment do something drastic turn get seen. Not the workers fault. It's the system. No wonder it's difficult to get people to do this job.

It might sound unbelievable but the SLAM social worker said his area had no pyschiatrist. (My GP had asked SLAM that I see one to check my medication.) In all my time with SLAM I never personally saw a psychiatrist.

SLAM referred ( being "referred" one quickly learnt meant no one would see you in foreseeable future) me to pyschiatrist elsewhere as they didn't have one. I felt sorry for the social worker having to tell me this.

I can well understand why someone might think twice about training as psychiatrist now. The caseload is horrendous. You don't have to time for patients and if someone goes wrong turn your to blame.
 
David Clapson said:
Hmm. Isn't your answer a bit skewed by your own experience? Aren't you ignoring general trends? The 10x figure for psychosis is a fact. And IME almost everyone in our local psych ward at Lambeth Hospital is black. Black guys can see their GP pretty much when they want to, there's hardly any wait, and the GP can help lots of MH patients with talk and antidepressants. Of course that's only part of the answer but people who talk to their GP must be far less likely to end up on a secure ward. Not that I have any numbers to back that up. As for the status thing, yes it's a stereotype, but that's because there are so many people living up to it. The flash cars, the bling, the touchiness about respect. I know I'm starting to sound prejudiced here, but knocking about Coldharbour that's what I see. Have I got selective vision?
Click to expand...

I put my personal experience in as stats are bandied about to easily. I don't think my personal experience is that different from other users.
I'm using my personal experience to demonstrate that services aren't there. Which is lost in the discussion of black men and mental health.

To say that GPs can help with talk is rubbish. GPs are under pressure themselves. They don't have that much time. Nor are they specially trained.

I stand by my main point. When there are proper services in place I will discuss black mens supposed interest in bling rather than looking after their mental health.

The black men I know have much the same concerns as me. Family, partner, earning to get by etc etc.
 
David Clapson said:
Ah, Florian Ruths! He was one of the good ones. But he seemed to end up pretty miserable/stressed himself. Then he disappeared. He tried to introduce mindfulness as a treatment for depression. I wondered whether that got him into unpleasant disputes within the NHS. Tall Poppy Syndrome can be vicious amongst medics. Apart from him, I've lost count of the psychs who I only saw once because they all seemed to be temping or leaving the area or something. I got so pissed off with having to give my complete history at every single effing appointment - it took over an hour, so I'd never get anything back in return, the appointment was over.
Click to expand...
Did you know St Florian is the patron saint of firemen? I discovered this visiting Bruckner's organ at St Florian's monastery outside Linz. The monastery is next to a fire station, and the firemen made an arch of water for one of their number to pass under with his new wife as they came out of the church.

I noticed that Dr Ruths did CBT as a private option in a clinic in Blackfriars. He was also extremely partial to prescribing his "rescue remedy" which was Quetiapine. I only tried Quetiapine briefly, but on a communal CBT course at 332 Brixton Road I met this very lively guy who said Quetiapine was great because you could have 8 pints at night and no hangover the next morning.

Dr Ruths did try and get you things to do - quite empathetic. On the whole he was beneficial to me.
 
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