Box sash windows : replace or repair?

[teuchter]

Sash windows are such a pain. I hate them. They cause nothing but grief, and cleaning them on the outside is also an ball ache if you live high up with no access to a ladder or balcony.

Many traditional sash windows are designed so that you can open them inwards for cleaning.

 

[bimble]

What I learned mostly whilst renovating all my old wooden windows last year is why people charge such large sums of money to do that for you. It look me much longer than it would’ve taken a skilled person but still, it’s a long and slow and awkward job.

 

[skyscraper101]

Many traditional sash windows are designed so that you can open them inwards for cleaning.

Interesting. Mine just seem to go up and down. And even the one that goes up doesn't stay up and needs to be held open. It's been propped up with a mic stand for the last 2-3 months!

 

[ash]

I've got a friend who is local to you who does replacement sash windows. I'll PM his details but he's on holiday in Italy at the moment.

I would be grateful if you could pm me too we need to do this once we’ve saved up.

 

[WouldBe]

Many traditional sash windows are designed so that you can open them inwards for cleaning.

I've never seen any that do.

 

[teuchter]

I've never seen any that do.

Hm, maybe it's a Scotland-specific feature?

I have lived in Glasgow tenement flats which have had it - works like this:

 

[teuchter]

Interesting. Mine just seem to go up and down. And even the one that goes up doesn't stay up and needs to be held open. It's been propped up with a mic stand for the last 2-3 months!

If it doesn't stay up then it probably means the cords that connect it to the counterweights (hidden inside the box frame) have broken - something that can be fixed.

 

[skyscraper101]

If it doesn't stay up then it probably means the cords that connect it to the counterweights (hidden inside the box frame) have broken - something that can be fixed.

Yeah. As I said, pain in the hole.

 

[story]

What I learned mostly whilst renovating all my old wooden windows last year is why people charge such large sums of money to do that for you. It look me much longer than it would’ve taken a skilled person but still, it’s a long and slow and awkward job.

I used to be a painter and decorator so I know how to do this. Once you know how to do it it‘s pretty routine and can be quite meditative. I was good at it so the gaffer would always get me to do it. I found it really satisfying.

Always hated the prep though. Once I had the gaffer’s respect I’d always try to get a labourer to help with all that shit.

And if I timed it right I could just justifiably knock off early for lunch, tea break, home time cos you can’t start on the next bit til the last bit is dry.

Same with doors but less fiddly. The trick with oil based paint (well, paint in general) is to keep the live edge going, don’t let it rest. “No live edge!” will ring in my ears for ever.

I was good at all the gloss stuff really. I was lucky, I was taught how by an old boy who always came to work in a suit jacket shirt and tie, flat cap. Proper old school. And the plasterer on the firm had forearms like Popeye. Made it look easy as spreading butter on toast.


I remember watching him float the brush over the beads, all the cutting in, steady hand, no bother. He coached me so well that I now find all that taping up stuff a real bore and chore. And he had an old pumice stone with ridges wore into it like an ancient abandoned quarry that he used for rubbing down. He’d start a new one and wear it in before the old one disappeared to dust.


Oops. Floated off to reminiscences there…

 

[marty21]

I had this done very recently , got him to check and repair all the sash windows, there are 7 in total . They hadn't been sorted in the 25 years we have lived here . A bloke was recommended by an ex-neighbour. He did them all , took about a day per window, cost was about £3k . Would recommend him if you are east London-ish .

 

[bimble]

I used to be a painter and decorator so I know how to do this. Once you know how to do it it‘s pretty routine and can be quite meditative. I was good at it so the gaffer would always get me to do it. I found it really satisfying.

Always hated the prep though. Once I had the gaffer’s respect I’d always try to get a labourer to help with all that shit.

And if I timed it right I could just justifiably knock off early for lunch, tea break, home time cos you can’t start on the next bit til the last bit is dry.

Same with doors but less fiddly. The trick with oil based paint (well, paint in general) is to keep the live edge going, don’t let it rest. “No live edge!” will ring in my ears for ever.

I was good at all the gloss stuff really. I was lucky, I was taught how by an old boy who always came to work in a suit jacket shirt and tie, flat cap. Proper old school. And the plasterer on the firm had forearms like Popeye. Made it look easy as spreading butter on toast.


I remember watching him float the brush over the beads, all the cutting in, steady hand, no bother. He coached me so well that I now find all that taping up stuff a real bore and chore. And he had an old pumice stone with ridges wore into it like an ancient abandoned quarry that he used for rubbing down. He’d start a new one and wear it in before the old one disappeared to dust.


Oops. Floated off to reminiscences there…

The bit that isn’t prep is the fun bit, absolutely agree. Which bit seemed to make up aprox 3% of the season-long window renovation job.

 

[bimble]

The worst bit was when I finally read in full the miniature print about my exterior print which I only did weeks after I’d finally ‘finished’ the whole job. It said ‘touch dry in 4 hours” but Fully Cured in.. 2-4 weeks. Weeks! And by then it was September I think so I’d closed the windows, which half of them were then painted shut , replicating the problem I’d set out to fix.

 

[Ted Striker]

I am having nightmares with this right now

Sash windows are a bit of a triggers broom in that they can be infinitely repaired.

All the repairers I have spoken to won't touch the painting, which is damn stupid (you've got them off, taken apart, but no, you'll put them all back together again and expect someone else to paint them in situ )

They (repairers) are also in fairly high demand

If anyone can recommend someone in Somerset/Dorset they would be a lifesaver!

(Tho the moment you have fully working, non-sticky, properly weighted windows, where the locks align...Heaven)

 

[ash]

I had this done very recently , got him to check and repair all the sash windows, there are 7 in total . They hadn't been sorted in the 25 years we have lived here . A bloke was recommended by an ex-neighbour. He did them all , took about a day per window, cost was about £3k . Would recommend him if you are east London-ish .

That sounds very reasonable. How rotten were the frames and cills. Our cills are like paper mache (you can stick a finger in them). I think replacement is our only option!!

 

[marty21]

That sounds very reasonable. How rotten were the frames and cills. Our cills are like paper mache (you can stick a finger in them). I think replacement is our only option!!

They weren't too bad (which surprised me tbf) he added a bit to the original bill , a few hundred, because of one fucked cill, frames were mostly OK.

 

[ash]

Do you think he would work in south London (if so would you mind passing on his details).

They weren't too bad (which surprised me tbf) he added a bit to the original bill , a few hundred, because of one fucked cill, frames were mostly OK.

 

[marty21]

Do you think he would work in south London (if so would you mind passing on his details).

I'll text him & find out .

 

[story]

I had this done very recently , got him to check and repair all the sash windows, there are 7 in total . They hadn't been sorted in the 25 years we have lived here . A bloke was recommended by an ex-neighbour. He did them all , took about a day per window, cost was about £3k . Would recommend him if you are east London-ish .

South, as per my avatar ( if you’ve got the avatar skin on). But thanks, it’s good to know such is an option.

I'll text him & find out .

Tell them they may have more than one client down here.

 

[story]

We were looking at a house in a "conservation area".

The box sash windows that were approved by the local council were £4,000 each.

We didn't buy the house.

It is appalling that given the climate crisis and cost of living crisis so many restrictions are placed on people getting decent double glazing. Even £2k a window is prohibitively expensive for most people (and certainly isn't something a buy to let landlord will bother with).

£2k sounds pretty reasonable. Check whether you are in a conservation zone though.

Just checked and nearly gave myself conniptions. I’m just outside one, thank the gods.

On the specialist company vs local chippy question:

If you want properly performing thermally efficient windows then what's important is that they are carefully specified and then properly manufactured. It's not impossible to achieve this via the "local chippy" route but I would tend to say, go with a specialist window supplier.

Modern windows with double (or triple) glazing, proper air seals and so on are a bit of a different beast from the single glazed edwardian or victorian ones they often replace. They need to be made with fairly high precision, and that's best done in factory conditions by people who do it every day.

You should also think about things like whether you can get them with a warranty. That applies to the window frame, the glazing units and the installation of the completed windows. It's better really if all of those things are covered by the same company so that if there are problems, you aren't in the situation where you have multiple people blaming each other.

Get a few quotes from different companies, and then compare them carefully, because they won't all be offering you the same thing. Pay attention to the glazing spec.

There are a few window threads on urban, some of which have various boring essays from me on them. Might be worth reading through a couple of those threads.

This is pretty much what I’d arrived at myself. I suspect that unless I find the exact right person who can magically provide exactly what I want (as outlined by you) at a reasonable cost, I’ll be going to the corporate people.

Also - if you want to do it properly, don't bank on it being possible to do it before this winter.

Yeah, I’m reluctantly aware of this.

I looked into specialist firms when i needed mine done but they had huge waiting lists. Went with a very local joinery company who were really good.

I've big sash windows. Got two completely replaced as they were rotten and the others double glazed. It was about eight years ago and yes, it was really expensive. Made a huge difference temperature wise to my flat though.

(Also remember you'll need to get the frames painted afterwards too.)

Eta re teuchter 's point about local joinery firms. The one i used does do other stuff but the vast majority of their business is sash windows. They talked me through things at length to work out exactly what I wanted/what was possible. The two guys who installed them had both worked for the company for like 20 years each. I also got whatever the certificate thing is. (Can't remember the acronym right now.)

And yes, with the way heating costs are going I expect huge waiting lists to be the norm now. And the costs will no doubt be higher too.

Mentioned it on another thread but I've added secondary glazing with magnetic strips which work really well. Best secondary glazing I've seen though was in a pub in Falmouth - separate wood frame windows inside the others, looked lovely.

But do you need to take the, down and store them somewhere to open and close the windows?

 

[story]

Front of our place has six large sash windows which I have preserved with regular coats of white gloss.they are about two hundred years old but they still slide up and down nicely .Useless for keeping out draughts the glass is paper thin so our winter solution has been large sheets of acrylic on the inside of the box with pivoting plastic fasteners at each edge.back of the house gets all the weather here there are only three surviving sash windows the others are modern two by three pine efforts.About nine months ago we realised that we couldn't afford new windows .Since that time there is only the acrylic sheet keeping the weather out on the windward side and the three ancient sash windows are starting to break up.Bits fall off onto our back strip of garden but no-one goes around the back since the milkman took Ill so the sash windows will stay until they don't.

A friend has her windows done with acrylic. As effective and affordable as it is, its not what I want in the long term, although I may be using something the hairdryer applied stuff this winter When I was staying at my friends place, i really noticed how grubby the windows (both the glass and the acrylic were on a sunny day, and there were old spider webs in between the glass the layers, a film of London dust along the bottom. She said it was a real pain, a big project, to get them off to clean so she didn’t bother doing it. Light is really important to me, as is not too many time-hungry projects that need physical stamina, so I‘m not keen. I’m planning for the future as much as trying to take care of things right now. Windows that open and close and are easy to cover in a heatwave, and to keep clean as I get older and less nimble/inc,ised to physical work. That’s part of the criteria here.

I think you might want to check out 'window film'. I don't know much about it but a quick google brought this up: Stained Glass Window Film | Stained Glass Windows | Purlfrost

They looks pretty good. But a friend is a mosaic maker and has offered to make me some art, was hoping to incorporate that.

Sash windows are such a pain. I hate them. They cause nothing but grief, and cleaning them on the outside is also an ball ache if you live high up with no access to a ladder or balcony.

Ground floor for me, and easy access, windows aren’t too enormous. I quite like cleaning windows, but also the local Windows is good and affordable.

 

[story]

Interesting. Mine just seem to go up and down. And even the one that goes up doesn't stay up and needs to be held open. It's been propped up with a mic stand for the last 2-3 months!

When I lived in a big shared house, in the middle of Brixton, the back reception room that gave onto the garden was where the dining room, jjukebox and turntables were. We had the same problem with the window in there and one hot busy summer it was propped open the entire time day and night with a speaker turned out to the garden. Bumped into someone recently, and his wife, who lived there that year and we set to reminiscing and his wife said “He’s always on about how good that summer was” and all I could say was “ … it really was….” and we both went into that silent wistful reverie thing. You’ve just triggered those memories again…..

The worst bit was when I finally read in full the miniature print about my exterior print which I only did weeks after I’d finally ‘finished’ the whole job. It said ‘touch dry in 4 hours” but Fully Cured in.. 2-4 weeks. Weeks! And by then it was September I think so I’d closed the windows, which half of them were then painted shut , replicating the problem I’d set out to fix.

Oh yes, I’ve seen that thread. One of those never ending chores.
Paint always takes longer than it says to cure properly.

I am having nightmares with this right now

Sash windows are a bit of a triggers broom in that they can be infinitely repaired.

All the repairers I have spoken to won't touch the painting, which is damn stupid (you've got them off, taken apart, but no, you'll put them all back together again and expect someone else to paint them in situ )

They (repairers) are also in fairly high demand

If anyone can recommend someone in Somerset/Dorset they would be a lifesaver!

(Tho the moment you have fully working, non-sticky, properly weighted windows, where the locks align...Heaven)

That’s the dream, eh!

That sounds very reasonable. How rotten were the frames and cills. Our cills are like paper mache (you can stick a finger in them). I think replacement is our only option!!

The bottom rail of the windows that are bad are really bad. It’s like pitting oedema. Just press my thumb in and leave a mark. And the bottom rail in the bedroom is pretty much held in place by inertia and putty.

 

[ash]

We were looking at a house in a "conservation area".

The box sash windows that were approved by the local council were £4,000 each.

We didn't buy the house.

It is appalling that given the climate crisis and cost of living crisis so many restrictions are placed on people getting decent double glazing. Even £2k a window is prohibitively expensive for most people (and certainly isn't something a buy to let landlord will bother with).

£2k sounds pretty reasonable. Check whether you are in a conservation zone though.

My understanding is that as long as the windows look the same and are made of the same material as the previous ones you don’t need planning permission- is this not correct?

 

[two sheds]

But do you need to take the, down and store them somewhere to open and close the windows?

Yes although that's usually easy enough and I've got a cupboard they'll fit in. They generally stay up all winter, I get air flow through the rooms by other means.

 

[story]

Yes although that's usually easy enough and I've got a cupboard they'll fit in. They generally stay up all winter, I get air flow through the rooms by other means.

I think I’ve seen it somewhere, like maybe a posh pub restaurant in the West Country.

Someone else looking at this thread might find it to be the perfect solution, but not me.

 

[two sheds]

Fair play. I love them (easy to have them made, cheap, easy to put up/take down, do make a difference with leaky windows), and have had a couple of people surprised when I pointed them out because they'd not noticed. Might be worth searching for different secondary glazing methods on architectural/home design type sites for something you'd go for.

 

[The39thStep]

We were looking at a house in a "conservation area".

The box sash windows that were approved by the local council were £4,000 each.

We didn't buy the house.

It is appalling that given the climate crisis and cost of living crisis so many restrictions are placed on people getting decent double glazing. Even £2k a window is prohibitively expensive for most people (and certainly isn't something a buy to let landlord will bother with).

£2k sounds pretty reasonable. Check whether you are in a conservation zone though.

I think the conditions for conservation areas are locally determined by the council following consultation. I bought a house in one and had double glazing put in the front windows as it was next to a road and didn’t have any probs . The rest of his house was sash windows apart from the big kitchen window .