Anti-racism training, blue eyes/brown eyes role play

[marty21]

http://www.janeelliott.com/

I heard a very interesting show on radio 4 on Sunday afternoon about this training, basically the classes are divided into 2, those with brown eyes, and those with blue. most non-white people do not have blue eyes, so go in the brown eye group. The blue eyes are then basically humilated for a couple of hours so that they can see what it is like to be a victim of racism. The above link is from the woman who started this sort of training method

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

there was a lot of criticism of the method on the show, and a spokesperson for the course refused to answer questions about a negative academic paper on the course. she claimed that they had not read the paper, which seemed strange.

It's mostly run in america but i believe courses have been run in the uk. has anyone been on the course, how did you feel, were you brown eyed or blue eyed?

 

[s.norbury]

Whats blue and hazel and green and flecked? This sort of classification is not worth thinking about, just as a tool of fascists and racists. What about the uniqueness of each and every iris?

 

[Wookey]

A teacher friend of mine did this recently in her Cert Ed training, she was very impressed by it, and I think took it back to college to show the kids. I'd be interested in any negative take on it to give her some balance.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Yes, I heard that one as well. The organiser sounded a bit too ranty and convinced of the superiority of her approach, I was more interested in the reactions of the participants; they seemed to be generally impressed by it, and many of the black participants said that it did mirror their experiences of racism, in a concentrated form.

On the other hand you have to be careful with these highly emotionally charged sessions, as it might well be that people just get caught up in the mood of the moment and their initial reactions don't hold, or on further, calmer examination they disagree with. The interviewees weren't taken just after the course though as far as I'm aware so there would have been the opportunity for consideration.

Not sure about the study that was done on it. They took people who had just done the course and compared their results on some sort of "racism test" against a control group, and found that there was no significant difference. That seems to me to ignore the fact that you can't measure how someone's attitude is going to change gradually as they think over what they've experienced, see parallels in everyday life and so on - and also, a "racism test"? I've not been impressed with any of the ones I've seen or heard about. Not to say that this means that it *does* help but I wouldn't take a study as conclusive debunking at all.

edit: and I did wonder what would happen to people with green eyes like myself

 

[marty21]

A teacher friend of mine did this recently in her Cert Ed training, she was very impressed by it, and I think took it back to college to show the kids. I'd be interested in any negative take on it to give her some balance.

there was some negative feedback on the radio show, i'll try and see if it's available to d/load

I'm having problems gettingn on the bbc site, the show was on sunday afternoon at about 1.30

 

[cathal marcs]

So we need dome patronising anti racist consultant to teach us how not to be racist. Anti racist and diversity training is nothing but patronising liberal crap if you ask me.

 

[J77]

We were doing this stuff in PSE back in the early 90s.

(My gf also did it with her classes when she was teaching in the UK.)

It's not all about the racism - it's about kids realising that people are different and shouldn't be catergorised.

 

[cathal marcs]

it's about kids realising that people are different and shouldn't be catergorised.

tell that to Jaspers, Livingslime and the rest of that ilk.

 

[Wookey]

So we need dome patronising anti racist consultant to teach us how not to be racist. Anti racist and diversity training is nothing but patronising liberal crap if you ask me.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here and guess that you aren't black, female, gay or disabled?

 

[J77]

Just remembered: it's wise for the teacher to make sure beforehand that a kid with low self-esteem doesn't get singled out on one side

Kinda defeats the object

 

[Kameron]

It's not all about the racism - it's about kids realising that people are different and shouldn't be catergorised.

In order to buy this as a teaching method you have to think that contrapositive proofs are an efficient teaching mechanism. I would make the analogy by imagining a spelling lesson where you must write down a way not to spell a word; I think that you can see clearly that this is not a helpful way of teaching how to spell words correctly. What is more I believe that it is widely accepted in the teaching community that contrapositive teaching is counter productive; I think it is seen as overly reductive of the learning process to see p => q and ¬p => ¬q as equivalent forms.

 

[mhendo]

There's a TV show starting here in the US on the F/X cable network in March. It's produced by Ice Cube, and is called Black. White. The idea is literally to change people's colour and put them in new situations for an extended period.

I want to watch the first couple of episodes to see if it's any good.

Here's the show's website.

 

[treefrog]

I've been in a class where we did this roleplay (I was about 14) I really remember it as I was in the brown-eyed section and I felt utterly stumped by the experience. We were asked to justify why we were the dominant people in society and I couldn't think of anything to say. I remember the whole thing ended when one of the blue eyed group burst into tears and ran out the room. Was a very strange day...

 

[marty21]

I've been in a class where we did this roleplay (I was about 14) I really remember it as I was in the brown-eyed section and I felt utterly stumped by the experience. We were asked to justify why we were the dominant people in society and I couldn't think of anything to say. I remember the whole thing ended when one of the blue eyed group burst into tears and ran out the room. Was a very strange day...

that's partly what concerns me, part of it appears to be designed to completely humiliate the blue eyed part of the class/training group, I know the point is to make people realise what it's like to be discriminated against, but it seems like a harsh way to prove the point.

 

[Flavour]

They did this to us at school in Year 9 or 10, must have been 14 or 15 (it was in R.E./etc class). Being blue eyed, I flipped out and garotted my teacher (not literally), who later apologised for trying it.

 

[cathal marcs]

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here and guess that you aren't black, female, gay or disabled?

Here we go Classifying people make assumptions about folk you dont even know

Its checklist politics tick the boxes and your not racist.

Never mind the emotional points mentioned above.

 

[Wookey]

Here we go Classifying people make assumptions about folk you dont even know

Its checklist politics tick the boxes and your not racist.

Never mind the emotional points mentioned above.

I just wonder what kind of person would typify Anti-racist and diversity training as 'patronising liberal crap' - it seems like something a straight, white ignorant bloke would say.

Yes, I'm assuming, that's what you do when someone hasn't furnished you with the facts, init?!

But if you're not a straight, white bloke, I'd like to hear why you don't feel you deserve anti-racist training.

 

[In Bloom]

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here and guess that you aren't black, female, gay or disabled?

I'm not straight and I have a disability.

Do I win enough PC points to call it a load of sweaty old bollocks?

 

[Wookey]

I'm not straight and I have a disability.

Do I win enough PC points to call it a load of sweaty old bollocks?

If you want to call the entire universe of equality awareness and anti-racism training a load of sweaty old bollocks, then you have enough points, yes, as long as I can see your orange card please.

 

[foggypane]

So we need dome patronising anti racist consultant to teach us how not to be racist. Anti racist and diversity training is nothing but patronising liberal crap if you ask me.

I would partly agree, because since I became a middle class person I've had various Gruppenfuhrers of the Thought Police doling out this crap at work.

I'm absolutely convinced that there is a place for intervention in the behaviour of racists, and also for awareness raising across all cultures of how they are percieved by members of other groups. As well as this, individuals who are not overtly racist can be challenged to examine themselves in this area, and it can be quite valuable.


This is all conjecture on my part though, because every time I've been anywhere near any training on the subject it has been run by appalling fuckwits whose twin objectives seem to be to get the audience fuming, and to take the money sharpish.

A 50 year old racist manager in a large firm or civil service dept. is not going to be knob enough to get caught out by a tick box consultant in a one day seminar on race awareness. This stuff is window dressing.
.

 

[Mikey77]

You can watch the PBS documentary here http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

Personally I hate blue eyed scumbags. I'd always give the black man the job first.

 

[Wookey]

I would partly agree, because since I became a middle class person I've had various Gruppenfuhrers of the Thought Police doling out this crap at work.

I'm absolutely convinced that there is a place for intervention in the behaviour of racists, and also for awareness raising across all cultures of how they are percieved by members of other groups. As well as this, individuals who are not overtly racist can be challenged to examine themselves in this area, and it can be quite valuable.


This is all conjecture on my part though, because every time I've been anywhere near any training on the subject it has been run by appalling fuckwits whose twin objectives seem to be to get the audience fuming, and to take the money sharpish.

A 50 year old racist manager in a large firm or civil service dept. is not going to be knob enough to get caught out by a tick box consultant in a one day seminar on race awareness. This stuff is window dressing.
.

I know a fantastic lesbian activist, who runs diversity awareness and anti-homophobia classes in schools. Very often it's the first time the youngsters have spoken about gay people in any tone other than sneering. She tackles homophobic bullying, stereotyping, role models - and from what she tells me she manages to really energise the kids into at least questioning what our homophobic society has drilled into them, and visualising the impact their behaviour can have on other people.

To wholescale dismiss her area of expertise is daft, just coz of a few bad experiences. The training response to diversity issues is less than 20 years old, and in schools it's far younger. I think it's had a massive effect on the way minorities are treated in many workplaces, when it's done correctly.

 

[In Bloom]

If you want to call the entire universe of equality awareness and anti-racism training a load of sweaty old bollocks, then you have enough points, yes, as long as I can see your orange card please.

Exactly what evidence is there that wagging your finger at grown adults and telling them not to be racist because it's naughty is at all effective?

 

[Wookey]

Exactly what evidence is there that wagging your finger at grown adults and telling them not to be racist because it's naughty is at all effective?

So you don't agree with anti-racist legislation either? Or gender equality law? Forcing bosses to give equal pay, equal consideration, equal opportunity? You don't see the point in barring oppressive language from the workplace, or having a recognised complaints procedure, and you see no reason for a large multinational firm to provide training that enables it to meet its legal requirement? What about work tribunals for people who feel they've been racially discriminated against, is that wagging a finger at bosses?

There are laws and responsibilities when you employ adults or teach children, and training enables organisations to meet those responsibilities. No one is going to be 'untaught' their racism, that's not what the training is about at all. But they will be taught to recognise what racism is, and dissuaded from ever using it in the workplace. What they say and do at home is their business.

Same with schools. The homophobia training I mentioned earlier aims to break the silence around homophobic bullying, but it won't eradicate the oppression that is homphobia. I wish I'd experienced it was I was at school, struggling with being gay.

 

[foggypane]

To wholescale dismiss her area of expertise is daft, just coz of a few bad experiences. The training response to diversity issues is less than 20 years old, and in schools it's far younger. I think it's had a massive effect on the way minorities are treated in many workplaces, when it's done correctly.

fair points - I have had some very depressing days whilst senior managers tick boxes and nowt changes, i'm glad that there are better thingsgoing on.

 

[cathal marcs]

I just wonder what kind of person would typify Anti-racist and diversity training as 'patronising liberal crap' - it seems like something a straight, white ignorant bloke would say.

Yes, I'm assuming, that's what you do when someone hasn't furnished you with the facts, init?!

But if you're not a straight, white bloke, I'd like to hear why you don't feel you deserve anti-racist training.

So if people pass a test they aren't racist? If an institution employs a certain number of blacks it isn't racist? Thats why I am against these strategies as I said its checklist politics. It does not deal with structures in society. Its not even moving the deckchairs just who gets the pleasure to sit on them. Tick the correct boxes you arent a racist.

It denies the existence of class and tells us we are categorised regardless of income, class position etc along the lines of race, sexuality, gender (Are you a consultant ) etc. All of which is very lucrative for the liberal diversity industry and, of course exploits divisions withing the class, also in the liberal middle class's interests

So far youve made assumptions about my race, ethnicity, gender and if I have disabilities and that I must be a 'straight, white ignorant bloke' because I find her a patronising liberal who seems to think everyones racist but herself. Furthermore I need to prove why I dont deserve to go through anti racist training by a consultant that charges $6000.00US plus all of travel expenses. Who does the testing you, Mark steel, Polly Toynbee or Lee Jaspers

 

[Termite Man]

The whole concept of that training is in itself racist because it's assuming only people with blue eyes - which it seems to suggest are white people are the only ones capable of racism which is blantantly untrue !

 

[cathal marcs]

The whole concept of that training is in itself racist because it's assuming only people with blue eyes - which it seems to suggest are white people are the only ones capable of racism which is blantantly untrue !

Ignorant straight, male, white racist

I think a session of ebony and ivory in some Corporate Hall is needed to rid you of your racism.

 

[Wookey]

So if people pass a test they aren't racist? If an institution employs a certain number of blacks it isn't racist? Thats why I am against these strategies as I said its checklist politics. It does not deal with structures in society. Its not even moving the deckchairs just who gets the pleasure to sit on them. Tick the correct boxes you arent a racist.

It denies the existence of class and tells us we are categorised regardless of income, class position etc along the lines of race, sexuality, gender (Are you a consultant ) etc. All of which is very lucrative for the liberal diversity industry and, of course exploits divisions withing the class, also in the liberal middle class's interests

So far youve made assumptions about my race, ethnicity, gender and if I have disabilities and that I must be a 'straight, white ignorant bloke' because I find her a patronising liberal who seems to think everyones racist but herself. Furthermore I need to prove why I dont deserve to go through anti racist training by a consultant that charges $6000.00US plus all of travel expenses. Who does the testing you, Mark steel, Polly Toynbee or Lee Jaspers

As a worker, I have a right to a safe workplace - at as a gay man that means one without homophobia. The same would go for a Black person with racism, or a woman with sexism. None of those hatreds are class conscious, so why should our response be?

Aside from dismantling society, how do you suggest I get protection at work? Mu union supports equality, and even trains in it. That's a workers right, and you would see it abolished?

How does anti-oppression legislation and the training that goes with it divide a class? Do you mean the working class are divided? How?

It might well be lucrative for the 'liberal diversity industry' - (whatever that is, the model I know best is the Stonewall Diversity Champions scheme, which is gay-run and free) - but that's rather like saying Health and Safety legislation is lucrative for Health and Safety training officers, and so must be invalid because of some vague suspicion of their motives.

The point remains, within the social system we currenty operate under, protection for minorities at work has positive effects.

 

[cathal marcs]

As a worker, I have a right to a safe workplace - at as a gay man that means one without homophobia. The same would go for a Black person with racism, or a woman with sexism. None of those hatreds are class conscious, so why should our response be?

Aside from dismantling society, how do you suggest I get protection at work? Mu union supports equality, and even trains in it. That's a workers right, and you would see it abolished?

How does anti-oppression legislation and the training that goes with it divide a class? Do you mean the working class are divided? How?

It might well be lucrative for the 'liberal diversity industry' - (whatever that is, the model I know best is the Stonewall Diversity Champions scheme, which is gay-run and free) - but that's rather like saying Health and Safety legislation is lucrative for Health and Safety training officers, and so must be invalid because of some vague suspicion of their motives.

The point remains, within the social system we currenty operate under, protection for minorities at work has positive effects.

I never said anything about legislation or that you should not be safe from any form of intollerance. I cant see how having some 'consultant' such as the one marty asked about is benificial or prevents this.