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Anarchist principles and Vanguards

RedSkin

Well-Known Member
Right am revisiting Augustin Guillamon's Los Amigos de Durruti (English translation obvs, I can't read Spanish) and I am stuck on this idea of creating a Junta (I know it doesn't have the same negative connotations in Spanish as in English). It was necessary to counter the collaborationist elements of the C.N.T. leadership does this mean it could be considered some kind of vanguard & would people critical of this be equally as scathing about the C.N.T. leadership.
I have to do some self-explanaition here I believe the term that best describes me is anarcho-communist. I actually dont mind the term Communist in used in the same sense by the French ultra-left, I absolutely love ultra left ideas but more often than not, they are not practical in the here and now. So are anarchists prepared to abandon some primciples in order to establish a dictatorship BY (not of) the proletariat. Could this extend to supporting a non- bolshevik vanguard?
Suppose we had a split in the w/c along the lines of Brexit with 52% progressive & 48% reactionary would it be revolutionary (not democratic) for the 52% to implement the the revolution. Now supposing the figures are reversed & its 48% in support of revolution do they have the right by force of arms to impose their will on the 52% who may well change their thinking once they experience a better life post revolution?
Are all vanguards beyond the pale however they are formed? Is there not an argument that millitant class struggle anarchists should form a vanguard to counter the woolly, liberal lifestylist elements who have to the potential to be counter revolutionary. You could argue that D.A.M. & Class War did that in the 80s & 90s without having to share the same 'platform' (pun intended). I am not saying I particularly agree or disagree the above points,just posing the questions.

Those who remember from YONKS ago will remember me being briefly involved in the fledgling I.W.C.A. coz they had been formed by one of the handful of credible left groups with a proven track record: A.F.A., here's something that might work let's give it a go, abandoning my opposition to electoral politics (given the experiences of Oxford Blackbird Leys the original anti-electoral analysis may have been correct).

I guess my essential question is how far would anarchists be prepared to sacrafice their principles even potentially supporting a vanguard to ensure the success of the revolution?
(Associating with any form of bolshevik is mine!)
 
Only on a sunny day I would imagine:
burnt-man.jpg
 
Are all vanguards beyond the pale however they are formed? Is there not an argument that millitant class struggle anarchists should form a vanguard to counter the woolly, liberal lifestylist elements who have to the potential to be counter revolutionary. You could argue that D.A.M. & Class War did that in the 80s & 90s without having to share the same 'platform' (pun intended). I am not saying I particularly agree or disagree the above points,just posing the questions.

I think that this touches on a very important thing that makes the left so ineffective, in that a lot of people who call themselves left do not share or even empathise with the interests of the working class. The wooly liberal position does not have the potential to be counter revolutionary, it is actively counter revolutionary, even to the extent that this weekend there was a massive demonstration which seemed to be mainly woolly liberals walking around in the centre of London waving EU flags!

I agree with dlr that a vanguard is not the revolution, but I also think that any hope of anything positive coming from the left is not going to come to much until it is made clear that all of this identity politics and pro global capitalism rubbish is not left wing it is just bourgeoise distraction and guilt in the aim of maintenance of the 'status quo'

I also agree with dlr that it's a bit of a dick move trying to trash the thread when he typed out a long question just because you don't like the OPs username!
 
I guess my essential question is how far would anarchists be prepared to sacrafice their principles even potentially supporting a vanguard to ensure the success of the revolution?

What does this vanguard look like in your head?

Plenty of actions adopt structures, assign chief stewards etc. But they are for a limited time. How do you ensure this vanguard is temporary?
 
This 'vanguard' could be dissolved once all opposition to the revolution had been defeated along with the dissolution of the state but then this would be imposed from the top down. This a thorny issue I don't pretend to know the answer to. It could be delegates, instantly recallable to mass productive, distributive & community assemblies but if they only represent 48% of the population...

Don't get me started on twats walking round London waving E.U. flags. Many representatives of the Greek or Kurdish communities there?
They really should check out Larry O' Hara's left/green criticisms of the E.U. on youtube
 
This 'vanguard' could be dissolved once all opposition to the revolution had been defeated along with the dissolution of the state but then this would be imposed from the top down. This a thorny issue I don't pretend to know the answer to. It could be delegates, instantly recallable to mass productive, distributive & community assemblies but if they only represent 48% of the population...

You don't get many examples of revolutionary vanguards disbanding themselves once they get the keys to the car in history, or even in fiction!

I'm well aware that this sounds hippy, likewise I haven't worked it out yet either, but I don't think that the true revolution will be a violent seizure and consolidation of power, it will be more like an organic movement that replaces the current system with a better one. Not like the 20th century Leninist idea of attacking at a moment of weakness so much as building a position of strength. I don't imagine that there won't be violence and unrest as a result of that, but it just isn't enough to simply win a strategic victory and take control of the existing power system, that is fascistic no matter how noble your intentions are

I know I believe in hippy bollocks but it is my hippy bollocks
 
Theres nothing wrong with ur hippy bollocks!
Yea the revolution can be seen more as a process as long as doesnt metamorphose into making the right consumer choices or is anyway linked to consumerism.
But at some point we really do have to burn as many members of the ruling class as we possibly can!
 
Theres nothing wrong with ur hippy bollocks!
Yea the revolution can be seen more as a process as long as doesnt metamorphose into making the right consumer choices or is anyway linked to consumerism.
But at some point we really do have to burn as many members of the ruling class as we possibly can!

With only a 52% backing by a dictatorship. That sounds more like a civil war.
 
Theres nothing wrong with ur hippy bollocks!
Yea the revolution can be seen more as a process as long as doesnt metamorphose into making the right consumer choices or is anyway linked to consumerism.
But at some point we really do have to burn as many members of the ruling class as we possibly can!

Or at least smash a couple of windows lol
 
I can think of a direct analogy from reasonably recent british history. I know rank & file N.U.M. members who layed the blame for Orgreave & ultimately the miners defeat at Scargill's feet. The tactics that were working, the geurilla hit squads attacks on scabs, police & N.C.B. property, the miners were winning but Scargill wanted a re-run of Saltly gates & quite possibly bcoz of his own ego, a big set-piece battle which given the balance of forces the miners could only loose. How could the most militant rank & file N.U.M. members counter this idiotic leadership? Impose their own?
Again these are questions, not my opinions
 
Quick q. R there any militant class struggle anarchists of a communist persuasion who think we should unite into a single group to counter the more liberal elements.
Please note that this does not mean you have to leave any organisation you also currently belong to. Dual membership is totally acceptable.
 
Quick q. R there any militant class struggle anarchists of a communist persuasion who think we should unite into a single group to counter the more liberal elements.
Please note that this does not mean you have to leave any organisation you also currently belong to. Dual membership is totally acceptable.

That's not a bad idea but in my experience the liberal elements far out number the militant class struggle anarchists of a communist persuasion .
 
Yeah, kinda get ur point CNT36 but in the very specific case of the Spanish Civil War, the anarchist 'leadership' collaborating with the bourgeois state destroyed the revolution. How do militants counter this?
 
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Revolution IS Civil War.
There will always be a reactionary element of the working class that will side with the enemy. The same way progressive elements of the middle class, say, I dunno, doctors and scientists will be convinced of the case for revolution.
 
I use the term dictatorship BY the proletariat. Which means the working class as a whole becoming the Ruling Class, the middle class I guess remaining in the middle and the Ruling Class at the bottom. This is immediately followed by the dissilusion of the whole concept of class.
(N.B. this is very idealised)
 
People like me ? WTF does that mean. I find it hard to define myself at times, how Supine
has a greater grasp of the situation than I do is beyond me.
But seeing as we are on a political talk board, where I have identified as an anarcho-communist and we are discussing a historical working class revolution is it not suprising I might mention the subject of class at regular intervals.
Supine have you read the thread title?
Supine you even on the right board mate?
 
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