Anarchism - Petty Utopianism

[A380]

“God Save Yugoslav"
(To the tune of God Save the Queen by the Sex Pistols)

Verse 1
God save Yugoslav,
The man without a clue,
He spits on anarchism,
And loves old Marx’s crew.
He’s got a book from Lenin,
And a poster on his wall,
But his brain is out to lunch,
He’s got no sense at all.

Chorus
Urban 75, you're so naïve,
With your anarchist dreams, you're just deceived.
Yugoslav laughs, but he don’t understand,
He’s the dullest Marxist in all the land.

Verse 2
He rants at all the thinkers,
Who fight for something new,
He clings to Marx like gospel,
But don’t know what to do.
Oh, Yugoslav’s a genius,
At least inside his head,
But every time he opens up his mouth,
He proves he’s wrong instead.

Chorus
Urban 75, you're so naïve,
With your anarchist dreams, you're just deceived.
Yugoslav scoffs, but he can’t see,
He’s the punchline to his own parody.

Verse 3
God save Yugoslav,
His brain's a pile of mush,
He shouts down revolution,
While clutching Marx’s crutch.
Oh, he’s a contradiction,
A clown without a show,
He hates all the clever people,
’Cause they’re the ones who know.

Chorus
Urban 75, you're so naïve,
With your anarchist dreams, you're just deceived.
Yugoslav sneers, but he don’t get far,
Just a broke-down Marxist in a second-hand car.

(Outro feedback screeches, Yugoslav curses in the distance...)

 

[paayah]

Since when anarchists want to create small commune within the state and capitalism?
Very lazy and misinformed.

 

[Knotted]

Yes. Both are anti-anarchist. But how can it be anti-Marxist? Marxists oppose the utopianism of anarchists. Marx advocated for dictatorship of the proletariat and number 6 is one of those where there is common ground between Marxists and anarchists over the bourgeois state being oppressive but the approach is different because Marxists want proletarian control of the state unlike the anarchists.

What did Lenin say about critiques of anarchism in State and Revolution?

 

[Dystopiary]

What did Lenin say about critiques of anarchism in State and Revolution?

Oh God.

 

[Rob Ray]

Very lazy and misinformed.

To the point I took one look and thought "nah cba". Practically anybody else is more worthwhile engaging with on anarchist politics than a Leninist partisan of that stripe, might as well argue with a brick wall.

 

[Yugoslav]

Since when anarchists want to create small commune within the state and capitalism?
Very lazy and misinformed.

It's their pragmatic approach. No anarchist overthrew an entire state.

 

[Yugoslav]

What did Lenin say about critiques of anarchism in State and Revolution?

Oh, is it the one previously stated. That they're misinformed yet Lenin is the one who wrote on why we need to keep the state in order to defend against the bourgeoisie.

 

[Knotted]

Oh, is it the one previously stated. That they're misinformed yet Lenin is the one who wrote on why we need to keep the state in order to defend against the bourgeoisie.

Don't guess. Read.

Spoiler

Lenin explicitly talks about the need to smash the state.

 

[Yugoslav]

Don't guess. Read.

"Only in communist society, when the resistance of the capitalists have disappeared, when there are no classes (i.e., when there is no distinction between the members of society as regards their relation to the social means of production), only then "the state... ceases to exist", and "it becomes possible to speak of freedom"."

- The State and Revolution — Chapter 5

 

[Knotted]

"Only in communist society, when the resistance of the capitalists have disappeared, when there are no classes (i.e., when there is no distinction between the members of society as regards their relation to the social means of production), only then "the state... ceases to exist", and "it becomes possible to speak of freedom"."

- The State and Revolution — Chapter 5

What did Lenin say about critiques of anarchism in State and Revolution?

 

[Knotted]

One could regard the whole of State and Revolution as a polemic against cherry picking quotes.

 

[Wilf]

What did Lenin say about critiques of anarchism in State and Revolution?

Dunno about that, but he thanked his mam and dad and said it had always been his dream to write a book. Said we should all live our very best life, though the Mensheviks could fuck off.

 

[JimW]

Phil in his anarchy-curious days: More Anarchist States: Manchurian Commune 1929-31

 

[Yugoslav]

What did Lenin say about critiques of anarchism in State and Revolution?

Again, the whole point of his "State and Revolution" is a critique of anarchism.

 

[Knotted]

Again, the whole point of his "State and Revolution" is a critique of anarchism.

It's a polemic against what Lenin called the opportunists and centrists. Ie. Mensheviks and German Social Democrats. Anarchists are barely mentioned.

Whatever crib notes you are going off are completely wrong. You should read it for yourself and come to your own opinions.

 

[steeplejack]

Well it's nice to spend time back in the urban75 of 2003. 100 Tsarist roubles for the first person to send this into a Kronstadt-based tailspin

 

[PTK]

It's ok Yugoslav, I got you er bro.

Lenin denounced the critiques of anarchism by Plekhanov and Kautsky because he believed their criticisms were misinformed and failed to understand the true nature of Marxism and the revolutionary struggle. Both Plekhanov and Kautsky, who were key figures in the Second International and the broader Marxist movement, had criticized anarchism for its rejection of state power and its tendency to oppose the idea of a "dictatorship of the proletariat."


Lenin, on the other hand, argued that these critiques misrepresented anarchism and overlooked key elements of Marxist theory. His primary disagreement with Plekhanov and Kautsky centered on their view of the state and revolution. Lenin believed that while anarchists rejected the state entirely, Marxism, in contrast, recognized that a temporary state, as the "dictatorship of the proletariat," was necessary to suppress the bourgeoisie and defend the revolution. This was a crucial part of the transition from capitalism to socialism, and Lenin felt that Plekhanov and Kautsky were overly cautious and reformist in their approach to state power.


Lenin's critique of both Plekhanov and Kautsky was rooted in his belief that they had abandoned revolutionary principles, becoming too focused on parliamentary tactics and compromise, which Lenin felt was insufficient for achieving real social change. He argued that only through the revolutionary action of the working class could the capitalist state be overthrown and replaced by a workers' state. In Lenin's view, Plekhanov and Kautsky's criticisms of anarchism missed the point of Marx's theory of the state and the role of class struggle in the creation of socialism.

"Both Plekhanov and Kautsky, who were key figures in the Second International and the broader Marxist movement, had criticized anarchism for its rejection of state power and its tendency to oppose the idea of a "dictatorship of the proletariat."
Is that so? Comrade Kautsky advocated the D of the P, did he? Comrade K criticised anarchists for not advocating the D of the P? Are there any quotes available to prove that this was so?

 

[PTK]

Marxists avoid this mistake by preserving the state by transferring the power to the workers

Proof that you have not actually read "State and Revolution" by Lenin, for you are actually advocating the reformist position against which Lenin argued. He wrote that it was not possible to seize control of the existing state apparatus. The existing state apparatus had to be smashed.

 

[PTK]

All right.

Let's get this refuted then.

1. As good as it may be, the execution of this argument from anarchist interpretation is idealist and wrong. Marxists believe in the need to use the state in order to do away with capitalism. Anarchists believe that the state is inherently evil regardless of the material conditions.

2. The problem is if left unsupervised, if committed too early, it will lead to vulnerability and capitalism will have it easier to crush down an anarchist commune. Marxists avoid this mistake by preserving the state by transferring the power to the workers and using it to destroy the bourgeoisie and build a strong army against capitalism. Marxists will aim for a mass revolution and the overthrow of an entire state and not just creating a small region like the anarchists did.

3. Emancipation of the self does not emancipate the masses. This is wholly individualist and contrarian to the Marxist approach to communism which aims to emancipate the masses from bourgeois capitalism.

4. Both anarchists and Marxists agree that capitalism is inherently exploitative but the Marxist approach is more realistic than the anarchist approach.

5. Refer to number two. Although understanding of the total central bureaucracy, there is an alternative by allowing AI technology to help with the workers' command economy. OGAS was vitally needed but was rejected by the bureaucracy due to its irrational fear of "decentralization". Chile was the only state which had proven an efficient AI-planned economy as it helped reduce the impact from counterrevolutionary non-socialist worker strikes.

6. Both Marxists and anarchists agree that the bourgeoisie use the state to monopolize violence. But a critique against the anarchism is that the workers do not need to put down their arms and "relax" after overthrowing the bourgeoisie because the state will not magically disappear as long as there persists a threat against the workers.

7. While environmental issues are indeed a big problem especially in 2024, we cannot trust a complete decentralization and let the anarchists decide for themselves. At worst it will lead to a pseudo-feudal society and some individuals may pursue their own vision of leftism that is contrary to actual leftism without any consequence because they run their own commune and the state does not exist to extinguish any possible rising counterrevolutionary movement that may seek to re-establish itself and reverse all progress.

8. Worked in practice for small regions and townships. No anarchist has ever overthrown an entire country in the history of this ideology.

9. Again, if total decentralization and each community according to their own "community-led patrol", then congrats, you Balkanized a society instead of "improving it".

10. Both Marxists and anarchists are revolutionary but anarchists don't want to overthrow and entire state in the time of a revolutionary strike due to their belief that powers be vested in local communities and not the proletariat as a whole. Marxists go from "each according to their needs to each according to their abilities", while anarchists go from "each according to their individuality to each according to their property".

"Chile was the only state which had proven an efficient AI-planned economy as it helped reduce the impact from counterrevolutionary non-socialist worker strikes."
1. Chile never had a planned economy. It had a social democratic government for three years, between 1970 and 1973, which tried to introduce some elements of planning, but elements of planning does not a planned economy make. Advanced capitalist economies use some planning.
2. There was no AI in those years. The Allende government did make some steps in using computers to plan some things, but cybernetics in those days was very primitive compared to today.