Air source heat pumps

[two sheds]

with pineapple I hope

 

[8ball]

with pineapple I hope

Wash your potty mouth out!

 

[teuchter]

They are low intensity heat sources, so if your house isn't well sealed and insulated, you will be wasting money. The internet is full of people moaning about their heating bills going UP after installing one because they haven't blocked up all the leaks in their house.

I have to say that I don't fully understand why they are no good in poorly insulated buildings, assuming that they are compared against a conventional all electric heating system.

I get it that they are low intensity and therefore may not be able to deliver heat at a rate that's higher than the rate at which it's lost from the building. However, why can't they simply be topped up with conventional resistive heating in that scenario. Surely even if you are producing your heat 50% from the heat pump and 50% from resistive heating, that's going to cost less than producing it all from resistive.

 

[two sheds]

Is it because electric heating may be 100% efficient but it's not always 100% effective? Higher radiant temperatures feel warmer so are more effective.

 

[WouldBe]

Must be some dense briquettes.

Edit: I'm thinking of BBQ charcoal briquettes, which seem quite light. I think the proper solid fuel ones might have been a lot denser (haven't used them for about 15 years).

They are dense. They are compressed sawdust. I've tried breaking one with a hatchet and they don't.

 

[two sheds]

Ah I think I tried some of them a while ago - do they expand massively when alight? And they work ok as only fuel type? I burned them along with wood - I'd have thought they burn away too fast.

 

[WouldBe]

Ah I think I tried some of them a while ago - do they expand massively when alight? And they work ok as only fuel type? I burned them along with wood - I'd have thought they burn away too fast.

They do expand when burning but not as much as other briquettes.

I burn them on their own and with other wood when I can get free offcuts or logs.

Burn time will depend on what type of fire you have and how it's regulated. They last about 45 mins in my fire when it's regulating.

 

[WouldBe]

two sheds Meant to add that my wood burner heats all the radiators and heats the hot water as well. So if you don't need that much heat output you should burn less.

 

[urbanspaceman]

I think the claim that heat pumps are worse, relative to other types of heating, in poorly insulated houses is a bit of a red herring. The fact is that old houses, like mine, were built with no thought of insulation, and heat just pours out of them, whatever its source.

Since so much of the UK's housing stock is old, there really should first be a concerted insulation campaign, which would be cheaper and incur less technology risk. For old houses, this would involve insulating the attic, fitting visually appropriate replacement double glazing, and installing solid wall insulation, either internal (which unfortunately reduces living space) or external. And possibly subfloor insulation under the ground floor.

Then heat pumps can be considered. They are rather expensive at the moment, but a big increase in production will generate Wright's Law (1) type cost reductions. I am planning a new build, incorporating a heat pump, and here are a few thoughts I had:

• Renewable energy will be less predictable than existing fossil fuel generation, and so more sophisticated electricity tariffs (2) will be introduced to shape demand.
  
  
• There will inevitably be surplus power available at night, so time-of-day charging will become more significant (3)
  
  
• The size of the heat pump required can be reduced by using advanced storage heaters (4) and charging them up overnight (or more dynamically, based on 30 min pricing) to provide supplementary heating. Also provides redundancy.
  
  
• Heat pumps are less efficient when a large temperature difference is involved i.e. making hot water. Thus it makes sense to heat water off-peak overnight on Economy 7 or its descendant tariffs, not with a heat pump. And so a smaller heat pump is required if relieved of the hot water service.
  
  
• While dedicated heat pumps exist, some more suitable for the mild UK climate (5) than the original Scandinavian designs, I don't see the problem with using air conditioner/heat pump combos, as produced in their millions by giant Japanese manufacturers (6). They are cheap(er), efficient, not actively ugly, well-proven and easily installed. I don't understand why there is such concentration on the rather "industrial" dedicated heat pumps, when a Panasonic split system will do the job just as well.

(1) What Is Wright's Law | Learning Curve of Innovation

(2) https://octopus.energy/static/consumer/documents/agile-report.pdf

(3) Octopus Energy

(4) Quantum HHR Storage Heater QM150RF | Dimplex

(5) Welcome to Kensa Heat Pumps - Kensa Heat Pumps

(6) Domestic air to air heat pump

 

[JimW]

It's an air heat pump that runs our underfloor heating and that does pretty well in a very poorly insulated single-storey Chinese courtyard house with thin walls; the pipes are running through concrete floors so that probably helps retain a bit of ambient heat; winters can get down to minus twenty and it makes even that bearable. Night electric is subsidised a bit but would think it costs equivalent of a couple of hundred quid to get us through the winter months, not too sure as didn't keep close record and of course hard to disambiguate where the electric is going if it's all the one non-smart meter.

 

[two sheds]

I think the claim that heat pumps are worse, relative to other types of heating, in poorly insulated houses is a bit of a red herring. The fact is that old houses, like mine, were built with no thought of insulation, and heat just pours out of them, whatever its source.

Since so much of the UK's housing stock is old, there really should first be a concerted insulation campaign, which would be cheaper and incur less technology risk. For old houses, this would involve insulating the attic, fitting visually appropriate replacement double glazing, and installing solid wall insulation, either internal (which unfortunately reduces living space) or external. And possibly subfloor insulation under the ground floor.

Then heat pumps can be considered. They are rather expensive at the moment, but a big increase in production will generate Wright's Law (1) type cost reductions. I am planning a new build, incorporating a heat pump, and here are a few thoughts I had:

• Renewable energy will be less predictable than existing fossil fuel generation, and so more sophisticated electricity tariffs (2) will be introduced to shape demand.
  
  
• There will inevitably be surplus power available at night, so time-of-day charging will become more significant (3)
  
  
• The size of the heat pump required can be reduced by using advanced storage heaters (4) and charging them up overnight (or more dynamically, based on 30 min pricing) to provide supplementary heating. Also provides redundancy.
  
  
• Heat pumps are less efficient when a large temperature difference is involved i.e. making hot water. Thus it makes sense to heat water off-peak overnight on Economy 7 or its descendant tariffs, not with a heat pump. And so a smaller heat pump is required if relieved of the hot water service.
  
  
• While dedicated heat pumps exist, some more suitable for the mild UK climate (5) than the original Scandinavian designs, I don't see the problem with using air conditioner/heat pump combos, as produced in their millions by giant Japanese manufacturers (6). They are cheap(er), efficient, not actively ugly, well-proven and easily installed. I don't understand why there is such concentration on the rather "industrial" dedicated heat pumps, when a Panasonic split system will do the job just as well.

(1) What Is Wright's Law | Learning Curve of Innovation

(2) https://octopus.energy/static/consumer/documents/agile-report.pdf

(3) Octopus Energy

(4) Quantum HHR Storage Heater QM150RF | Dimplex

(5) Welcome to Kensa Heat Pumps - Kensa Heat Pumps

(6) Domestic air to air heat pump

Interesting post

What do you think of the portable air-air heat pumps like the one I'm thinking of? £4-500 just to replace a fan heater running on demand?

Eta: not necessarily that one, I'd like a quiet one hopefully with COP of 2.5+ . Panels mean I could run it free during the day if it's sunny but I'm not sure how well the heat would be retained in the room.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Interesting post

What do you think of the portable air-air heat pumps like the one I'm thinking of? £4-500 just to replace a fan heater running on demand?

Eta: not necessarily that one, I'd like a quiet one hopefully with COP of 2.5+ . Panels mean I could run it free during the day if it's sunny but I'm not sure how well the heat would be retained in the room.

I've never seen or heard of them until now but I have reservations.
How 'portable' are they? I'm guessing they have to exhaust cold (or hot) air outside the house somehow?

 

[two sheds]

Yes 20kg+ I think. I won't be moving it round though. Just upstairs and yes the input comes through a wideish hose and there's an installation kit that you attach to the sash window. Will make it a bit difficult with the secondary glazing admittedly.

 

[two sheds]

The other thing I read a couple of years ago that said you have to watch out for legionnaires disease with just the single indoor unit but I think that is just with air-water heat pumps.

I've got a portable dehumidifier which is superb and I could put downstairs since you get dehumifier too.

 

[urbanspaceman]

Interesting post

What do you think of the portable air-air heat pumps like the one I'm thinking of? £4-500 just to replace a fan heater running on demand?

Eta: not necessarily that one, I'd like a quiet one hopefully with COP of 2.5+ . Panels mean I could run it free during the day if it's sunny but I'm not sure how well the heat would be retained in the room.

No name, specs or identifying info provided. I did a Google picture search and found this:

DiversiTech Global

Pump House sells into over 40 countries globally and offers over 2200 products for the HVACR and renewables markets from a single source. We offer a best in class customer service and delivery. Market sectors: Air-Conditoning, Refrigeration, Heating, Rene

www.pumph.co.uk

2.9 KwH heating capacity, so that's enough for one room. CoP = 2.1, which is nothing special. Looks like you must make a hole in the wall, and also find some way of (manually or plumbed-in) draining the water. Since the device is inside the building, the compressor noise is a consideration. Hard pass from me.

 

[urbanspaceman]

No name, specs or identifying info provided. I did a Google picture search and found this:

DiversiTech Global

Pump House sells into over 40 countries globally and offers over 2200 products for the HVACR and renewables markets from a single source. We offer a best in class customer service and delivery. Market sectors: Air-Conditoning, Refrigeration, Heating, Rene

www.pumph.co.uk

2.9 KwH heating capacity, so that's enough for one room. CoP = 2.1, which is nothing special. Looks like you must make a hole in the wall, and also find some way of (manually or plumbed-in) draining the water. Since the device is inside the building, the compressor noise is a consideration. Hard pass from me.

Panasonic Air Conditioning CS-FZ25WKE Compact Wall Heat Pump 2.5Kw/9000Btu R32 A++ 240V~50Hz

This Kit Includes KIT-FZ25-WKE 1 of Panasonic Air Conditioning CS-FZ25WKE Compact Wall Heat Pump 2.5Kw/9000Btu R32 1 of Panasonic Air Conditioning

www.orionairsales.co.uk

Compare with this Panasonic heat pump. Will need small holes for the refrigerant tubes. Compressor outside, so no noise problems.

 

[two sheds]

No name, specs or identifying info provided. I did a Google picture search and found this:

DiversiTech Global

Pump House sells into over 40 countries globally and offers over 2200 products for the HVACR and renewables markets from a single source. We offer a best in class customer service and delivery. Market sectors: Air-Conditoning, Refrigeration, Heating, Rene

www.pumph.co.uk

2.9 KwH heating capacity, so that's enough for one room. CoP = 2.1, which is nothing special. Looks like you must make a hole in the wall, and also find some way of (manually or plumbed-in) draining the water. Since the device is inside the building, the compressor noise is a consideration. Hard pass from me.

Yes there are ones with higher COPs and I saw one really quiet version. I've a feeling that the water discharge is only needed for dehumidifying and am hoping they have a water tank like my dehumidifier - but a hose could go outside along with the air inlet if not.

 

[two sheds]

Panasonic Air Conditioning CS-FZ25WKE Compact Wall Heat Pump 2.5Kw/9000Btu R32 A++ 240V~50Hz

This Kit Includes KIT-FZ25-WKE 1 of Panasonic Air Conditioning CS-FZ25WKE Compact Wall Heat Pump 2.5Kw/9000Btu R32 1 of Panasonic Air Conditioning

www.orionairsales.co.uk

Compare with this Panasonic heat pump. Will need small holes for the refrigerant tubes. Compressor outside, so no noise problems.

I've dismissed double-unit ones so far because the outdoor unit would be over the conservatory and really difficult to install and access. It could go on the front wall but that's the road side. Don't get a lot of traffic but I'd prefer it on the back wall facing the garden.

That does look nice though.

Eta: that one I gave earlier was just something random, but that Panasonic one is also good because me something to compare against.

 

[urbanspaceman]

Yes there are ones with higher COPs and I saw one really quiet version. I've a feeling that the water discharge is only needed for dehumidifying and am hoping they have a water tank like my dehumidifier - but a hose could go outside along with the air inlet if not.

"Water hose needs to be connected when in heat pump mode for dehumidification"

 

[urbanspaceman]

Yes there are ones with higher COPs and I saw one really quiet version. I've a feeling that the water discharge is only needed for dehumidifying and am hoping they have a water tank like my dehumidifier - but a hose could go outside along with the air inlet if not.

I am guessing that the air hose will be about 100mm in diameter. Quite a big hole to make in your wall

 

[two sheds]

No the air hose goes through the sash window with a converter kit (not sure how airtight that will be though, I've got magnetic strip secondary glazing).

 

[teuchter]

Stretching the definition of "portable" a bit, if the thing has to be connected to the outside world via an air hose.

 

[two sheds]

ok if you have sash windows and a couple of connection kits but yeh 30 kg was the last one I saw, so I was optimistic before.

 

[skyscraper101]

One of the leading makers of Heat Pumps has said they’re no good for much of the U.K. housing stock and says hydrogen is the future.

Heat pumps won’t work in old homes, warns Bosch

Heat pumps will not work for older UK homes which lack the necessary space and insulation, the UK boss of one of the largest makers of the devices has warned.

Heat pumps are a great solution for heating new homes with plenty of lagging and room to accommodate the larger system, said Vonjy Rajakoba, managing director of Bosch UK.

But much of the UK's Victorian housing stock is unsuitable for installing them and hydrogen-burning boilers are the future for those homes as the gas becomes cheaper to produce.

 

[lazythursday]

One of the leading makers of Heat Pumps has said they’re no good for much of the U.K. housing stock.
Heat pumps won’t work in old homes, warns Bosch

Heat pumps will not work for older UK homes which lack the necessary space and insulation, the UK boss of one of the largest makers of the devices has warned.

Do Bosch also make hydrogen boilers? Because there's really very little evidence that hydrogen is a likely solution for much of the UK. Most recent studies have come out against hydrogen.

Heat pumps will work in old Victorian houses if the necessary retrofit work is carried out first. It's a mammoth task but so is adapting the gas network for hydrogen and creating enough surplus renewable electricity to generate it.

 

[two sheds]

I wonder whether the thing about heat pumps being not so good in leaky homes is because the lower radiator temperature means less radiant heat so it feels colder.

 

[skyscraper101]

Interesting graphic here showing how Nordic countries are well on the heat pump game while the U.K. lags way down the take up list.

 

[tep]

Do Bosch also make hydrogen boilers? Because there's really very little evidence that hydrogen is a likely solution for much of the UK. Most recent studies have come out against hydrogen.

Heat pumps will work in old Victorian houses if the necessary retrofit work is carried out first. It's a mammoth task but so is adapting the gas network for hydrogen and creating enough surplus renewable electricity to generate it.

Well it's already coming down the pipe and will go up to 20% of the gas mix later on this year or by 2025.

 

[skyscraper101]

Do Bosch also make hydrogen boilers? Because there's really very little evidence that hydrogen is a likely solution for much of the UK. Most recent studies have come out against hydrogen.

Heat pumps will work in old Victorian houses if the necessary retrofit work is carried out first. It's a mammoth task but so is adapting the gas network for hydrogen and creating enough surplus renewable electricity to generate it.

I don't doubt they will work, but it seems to me with very little if any government support for that retro fitting, plus the space and cost required for the units and new stylee radiators - there's a diminished interest in this country. If I can draw any conclusion from that graphic, then I'm betting on those things being the biggest factors.

 

[WouldBe]

I wonder whether the thing about heat pumps being not so good in leaky homes is because the lower radiator temperature means less radiant heat so it feels colder.

It will be colder as the heat pumps can't provide enough heat to compensate for the losses.