Advice on supporting someone through disciplinary

[nagapie]

My friend has been called to a disciplinary meeting today and I'm looking for advice to try and support him. He hasn't had time to speak to his union and his employers are very right wing and anti union so he's worried that using his union might go against him.

Story leading up to this is that he has worked at the same place for over three years and never had any conduct complaints against him. Someone new started three months ago and they had an argument over politics/race (friend very left wing, other very right and racist) and this guy made a formal complaint against him - including name calling, racism (maybe he's suggesting my friend is anti white), sexual harrassment (friend blew a kiss at him because he was staring him out, guy told the boss he used tongues) and arguing.
My friend also had to write a statement in which he said this guy is always coming up to him and harrassing him and also that this guy threatened to jump him on his way home (this is true and everyone knows my friend walks home alone some distance at the end of his shift at 4am).
From what I know, no witnesses to any of it but my friend did admit to getting into an argument with him and blowing him a kiss.

Friend is worried that sympathies lie with the other person as his bosses are racist too. I am wondering what I can do to help, maybe some good Urban advice. Maybe I should offer to go into the meeting on Whatsapp as I'm worried that there will be no one to take notes and also that my friend will get too wound up about the lies to respond well.

 

[MickiQ]

Get the union involved, your friend seems to be implying to that he has been prejudged already. In which case he needs someone knowledgeable in his corner. Them disliking him because he brought a union official is going to make it a damn sight harder for them and easier on him than them disliking him because he came alone and they're racist pricks.

 

[nagapie]

Get the union involved, your friend seems to be implying to that he has been prejudged already. In which case he needs someone knowledgeable in his corner. Them disliking him because he brought a union official is going to make it a damn sight harder for them and easier on him than them disliking him because he came alone and they're racist pricks.

I'm not sure he'll get to his union in time.

 

[nagapie]

He has just told me that the whole factory floor heard this guy threaten him.
Says other guy has no witnesses unless someone is lying for him as he hasn't done either of the things he's been accused of.

 

[Callie]

I'm pretty sure he absolutely hi as the right to a second person being present at the meeting but he should agree that with them before hand

If he can get copies of relevant policies this will be useful. You can check if they are following their own policies.

Get him to log every interaction with the other person. Date time details . If he can pull anything from previous events that might be useful (?maybe has Comms with mates which say what happened when??)

 

[Callie]

He has just told me that the whole factory floor heard this guy threaten him.
Says other guy has no witnesses unless someone is lying for him as he hasn't done either of the things he's been accused of.

I think you can't really use that unless someone is willing to speak up to corroborate the incident. Does he have anyone willing to speak up about that?

 

[BoatieBird]

How much notice of the disciplinary meeting did they give him?
How much notice do their policies say he should get?
It ought to be long enough for him to arrange support from a friend/union official.

Also, cesare might have some good advice

 

[Callie]

ACAS website will have some good advice btw just look for disciplinary and grievance procedures

 

[Pickman's model]

My friend has been called to a disciplinary meeting today and I'm looking for advice to try and support him. He hasn't had time to speak to his union and his employers are very right wing and anti union so he's worried that using his union might go against him.

Story leading up to this is that he has worked at the same place for over three years and never had any conduct complaints against him. Someone new started three months ago and they had an argument over politics/race (friend very left wing, other very right and racist) and this guy made a formal complaint against him - including name calling, racism (maybe he's suggesting my friend is anti white), sexual harrassment (friend blew a kiss at him because he was staring him out, guy told the boss he used tongues) and arguing.
My friend also had to write a statement in which he said this guy is always coming up to him and harrassing him and also that this guy threatened to jump him on his way home (this is true and everyone knows my friend walks home alone some distance at the end of his shift at 4am).
From what I know, no witnesses to any of it but my friend did admit to getting into an argument with him and blowing him a kiss.

Friend is worried that sympathies lie with the other person as his bosses are racist too. I am wondering what I can do to help, maybe some good Urban advice. Maybe I should offer to go into the meeting on Whatsapp as I'm worried that there will be no one to take notes and also that my friend will get too wound up about the lies to respond well.

the first thing to do is not to panic.

the second thing is to determine whether the union rep can make it today. if i was in your friend's shoes i'd be thinking of the long game, which is that this might end up at a tribunal.

the most important things are to secure copies of a) the disciplinary policy, b) any investigatory reports that have been made, c) copies of statements / other evidence - and to contact the union and determine when a rep can attend. the meeting should be deferred until then - forcing it through today violates natural justice and quite possibly the disciplinary policy of the company (tho to know this last you'd have to have seen it)

it would be really unprofessional and perhaps contribute to a successful employment tribunal if the management take against your friend for being in a union and having a rep.

 

[Pickman's model]

incidentally why is this a disciplinary rather than a grievance? why hasn't there been any attempt to mediate between the two?

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[nagapie]

incidentally why is this a disciplinary rather than a grievance? why hasn't there been any attempt to mediate between the two?

They were both spoken to after the other person made the first complaint and statements taken but since then there's been another from him. I don't think there's been mediation between the two of them.

 

[Pickman's model]

They were both spoken to after the other person made the first complaint and statements taken but since then there's been another from him. I don't think there's been mediation between the two of them.

are you able to assist your friend getting hold of someone from their branch? it's such an involved situation with matters relying on which one can be more persuasive due to the absence of witnesses that the best thing is to get your friend a sit down with a union rep so inconsistencies in either procedure or statements can be drawn out. that's the only way forwards. your friend's task today is to see when a union rep can come and to tell management he'd be really happy to proceed once he has had a chance to receive advice and can be accompanied.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Not much to add except:

1. Pickman's model is on the money when he asks what the meeting actually is - the title will depend on the relevant procedures.
2. When time allows, your friend should get statements from other people who witnessed what happened. These do not need to be long - just what they heard and saw and what time/date it happened.

 

[nagapie]

Not much to add except:

1. Pickman's model is on the money when he asks what the meeting actually is - the title will depend on the relevant procedures.
2. When time allows, your friend should get statements from other people who witnessed what happened. These do not need to be long - just what they heard and saw and what time/date it happened.

His letter just says notice of disciplinary meeting. The wording in the letter says he will get a verbal or written warning .
I think his colleagues, even his mates, are scared of getting involved.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

His letter just says notice of disciplinary meeting. The wording in the letter says he will get a verbal or written warning .
I think his colleagues, even his mates, are scared of getting involved.

OK. Good to know.

Definitely something to go through with the union I think.

It appears that the outcome of the meeting is already decided and that your friend has not been given the necessary opportunities to respond to the accusations against them.

Also if they have not been given a copy of the procedures around this, that is unfair.

The procedures should include an appeals process, so that would be something to get into with the union also.

 

[Pickman's model]

His letter just says notice of disciplinary meeting. The wording in the letter says he will get a verbal or written warning .
I think his colleagues, even his mates, are scared of getting involved

Yeh def one for the union. But a warning for what? What policy has he contravened? How long will any warning be active for? Why has he been determined guilty before mgmt in possession of all the context? When was the decision made? Fucking typical management clusterfuck

 

[cesare]

His letter just says notice of disciplinary meeting. The wording in the letter says he will get a verbal or written warning .
I think his colleagues, even his mates, are scared of getting involved.

He has the right of accompaniment and if his union rep can't make the meeting the rep can ask for it to be postponed for up to 5 working days.

As Callie said, ACAS re the statutory code (which tribunals have to take into account so sensible employers make sure they follow it. I'll edit in a link.

Acas Code of Practice on disciplinary and grievance procedures | Acas

www.acas.org.uk

 

[Puddy_Tat]

His letter just says notice of disciplinary meeting. The wording in the letter says he will get a verbal or written warning .

I think his colleagues, even his mates, are scared of getting involved.

yes, expecting colleagues to stand up for you in a shit workplace is sometimes a bit over-optimistic

it would be really unprofessional and perhaps contribute to a successful employment tribunal if the management take against your friend for being in a union and having a rep.

although proving it can be difficult.

can you go to a tribunal for anything less than dismissal?

 

[Pickman's model]

although proving it can be difficult.

can you go to a tribunal for anything less than dismissal?

maybe. I'd be putting in a subject access request for emails, texts and handwritten notes made by management concerning nagapie's friend's case during whatever process this is as soon as any meeting ends.

 

[Pickman's model]

nagapie what happened?

 

[nagapie]

nagapie what happened?

I can't really make it out exactly but I think he attended the meeting and was told a version of events he didn't agree with, not given an opportunity to speak and then given minutes he has not signed.
I have told him to reject the minutes and accusations in an email and helped him write one but not sure if he'll see it through.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't really make it out exactly but I think he attended the meeting and was told a version of events he didn't agree with, not given an opportunity to speak and then given minutes he has not signed.
I have told him to reject the minutes and accusations in an email and helped him write one but not sure if he'll see it through.

That's really poor and he should contact someone from his branch ASAP and ask for them for legal support as tbh this has gone too far already. It looks like his company don't give a shit about their policies or procedures and in those circumstances I don't know what a rep could do. But he'll have to go through the union to get legal support that won't cost a ton and the reps on the ground will be able to advise if there's other things that can be done

 

[nagapie]

That's really poor and he should contact someone from his branch ASAP and ask for them for legal support as tbh this has gone too far already. It looks like his company don't give a shit about their policies or procedures and in those circumstances I don't know what a rep could do. But he'll have to go through the union to get legal support that won't cost a ton and the reps on the ground will be able to advise if there's other things that can be done

His company definitely don't care. That's why I've told him to at least put something in writing!