A History Of Ancient Britain

[invisibleplanet]

It's not just a case of 'when', but also 'where'.
Grand narratives don't necessarily work.

There are important differences from site to site and region to region for much of British prehistory.
Take two Mesolithic sites at opposite ends of the country as an example: Oronsay (Scotland) and Culverwell (Dorset). These two sites have in common a vast consumption of shellfish and the creation of middens, however there any similarity ends.

The nature of midden construction was different. At Oronsay, the middens were huge mounds above the ground, with what appears to be hearths/post-holes beneath. Whereas at Culverwell the midden was buried beneath the ground and a limestone floor was built over it and also a limestone slab-lined storage pit. There is also evidence of ritualised behaviour at both sites, again, so different in nature that each interpretation for each of the groups which created these 'archaeological artefacts' needs to be unique and site specific.

 

[belboid]

Sure, but I dont know what effect that has upon what I've been saying.

Society became class based in different places at different times. Of course it did. No 'grand narrative'? Well, it will be ioncredibly different to prove one at this distance, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. What you describe there is a fairly straightforward reaction to a change in material circumstances. It doesn't in any way rule out a 'grand narrative'

 

[boohoo]

Can we have a bunfight filter so that I can just read relevant points?

Anyway I watched, was interesting-ish. Didn't feel like it was telling me anything new - lots of subjects touched upon in different programmes.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I've made several points regarding the rise of class in Britain.

You haven't given any concrete examples of 'class'* in prehistoric Britain. You've just given a couple of generalised statements without any evidence whatsoever. Saying 'Of course it did' is not acceptable evidence.

We've given three concrete examples of people/groups concerned with 'prehistory' who are explicitly concerened with class.

As I said, you've given no concrete examples of 'class'* in prehistoric Britain.

*class as defined by Marx, hierarchical power relations within the structure of production; antagonistic relations of domination and exploitation;

 

[belboid]

I haven't said 'of course it did' at any point, don't make things up. I challenged your contention that prehistorians dont talk about class, because they do, as you were forced to admit.

And, if you'd paid attention, you'd kow I said that I thought class began in Britain no later than the arrival of the beakers.

 

[Spion]

IAnd, if you'd paid attention, you'd kow I said that I thought class began in Britain no later than the arrival of the beakers.

What evidence would you use to back that claim up?

While we can certainly associate farming, livestock rearing, trade and in some cases impressive personal wealth (in grave goods, for eg) with the beaker period, it's difficult to say for certain that the social relations of the time were class ones for certain, proto-class maybe, or maybe just scattered groups of farmers, maybe in tribe/clans/federations. Some do argue that the beaker period and its characteristically smaller burial sites and rituals signals a move to a more individualised view of the living/dead and their wealth than the megalithic period. But don't forget, the so-called beaker folk came after the age of the megaliths, with all the labour and social organisation implied by the great works of that period and who were probably farmers/traders etc as much as the later beaker people. </ open-ended musings>

 

[belboid]

Well, I think most of the prerequisites for a class society were there by the time the megaliths were erected, but the evidence suggests it hadn’t actually taken hold then. As you note, they were already complex societies, which were already trading in a significant range of goods and materials. There were also self-perpetuating elites (a professional priesthood, hereditary social stratification) and actively defensive structures (indicating frequent conflicts with neighbours). But there isn’t any evidence then for any of the structures built, neither the big ones like Avebury, nor the (individual) burial sites, being based upon rank, they are all concerned, rather, with ritual.
Not that long after, tho, we get the signs of such ranking becoming more and more important. The burial of high value items (bronze shields & weaponry for example) with high ranking members of those societies. This would have come with the increase in trade that took place around, which is exemplified by the beakers. Beaker pottery was often buried with the chieftains and priests, but not with the ‘common’ man. In buildings from the early bronze age (eg at Black Patch) we see for the first time buildings occupied by the chieftains being significantly larger than those for the rest of the group. As such we can see the elite separating themselves from the masses, and (at least) begin to form a distinct class in, of and for itself.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Big house means you can gather everyone indoors for open discussions. Big house fits everyone in, keeps wood-use moderate, keeps everyone warm and is better for telling stories and discussing important group issues of an evening.
Mrs Head-of-Family-Group and me, we never get any time to ourselves anymore. Sometimes people don't leave until 2 or 3 in the morning, especially the two young men who we haven't found brides for yet. How I long for those lustier days of our early marriage, when we lived modestly in that little hut in the further-fields *sigh*

 

[invisibleplanet]

In buildings from the early bronze age (eg at Black Patch) we see for the first time buildings occupied by the chieftains being significantly larger than those for the rest of the group. As such we can see the elite separating themselves from the masses, and (at least) begin to form a distinct class in, of and for itself.

Black Patch is a small-scale Middle-Later Bronze Age settlement (1070 +/-70 to 830 +/1 80 BCE), Earlier interpretation viewed Black Patch as representing the emergence of close-knit extended families (or clans), consisting of a "reasonably self-sufficient, extended family group" with a "relatively autonomous economy", practising agriculture and animal husbandry, supplemented by hunting and gathering of wild foods. The same earlier interpretation suggested all huts were contemporary, with each hut being associated only with a single set of activities.

This interpretation has since been revised after further examination of artifactual and structural data to reveal two disinct phases of building, both with one single porched dwelling with an ancilliary building, possibly an animal shelter. Another later interpretation also revised the suggestion that it represented a "relatively autonomous economic unit" to functioning within a "large open system of social reproduction".

The site is absolutely typical of other Later Bronze Age dwellings elsewhere in Sussex, and typical of the southeast for the Later Bronze Age in having one major residential hut associated with one or more ancilliary structures (Russell 1996; Drewett 1979, 1982; Barrett and Needham 1988).


There is absolutely no evidence that there was an elite personage living here, separating themselves from the masses. Where did you get your interpretation from, belboid?

 

[belboid]

Big house means you can gather everyone indoors for open discussions. Big house fits everyone in, keeps wood-use moderate, keeps everyone warm and is better for telling stories and discussing important group issues of an evening.
Mrs Head-of-Family-Group and me, we never get any time to ourselves anymore. Sometimes people don't leave until 2 or 3 in the morning, especially the two young men who we haven't found brides for yet. How I long for those lustier days of our early marriage, when we lived modestly in that little hut in the further-fields *sigh*

what a nice 'Just So' story

 

[butchersapron]

Did you get the pms too?

 

[belboid]

Black Patch is a small-scale Middle-Later Bronze Age settlement (1070 +/-70 to 830 +/1 80 BCE) and is thought to represent the emergence of close-knit extended families (or clans). It was interpreted to represent a "reasonably self-sufficient, extended family group" with a "relatively autonomous economy", practising agriculture and animal husbandry, supplemented by hunting and gathering of wild foods. Early interpretation suggested all hut phases were contemporary with each hut being associated only with a single set of activities. This interpretation (typical for so much of the structural-marxist interpretations of the late 1970s and early 1980s) has since been questioned and further examination of artifactual and structural data reveals two disinct phases of building. What we actually have there is one single porched dwelling with an ancilliary building, possibly an animal shelter. The site is absolutely typical of other Later Bronze Age dwellings elsewhere in Sussex, and typical of the southeast for the Later Bronze Age in having one major residential hut associated with one or more ancilliary structures. There is absolutely no evidence that there was an elite personage living here, separating themselves from the masses (Russell 1996; Drewett 1979; 1982)

that seems at least 500 years later than I thought it was meant to have been, I'll have to go check why I thought it was for the elite, but I'm sure I read it somewhere (tho whatever I read could well have been superceded by later research)

 

[belboid]

Did you get the pms too?

dang! sadly not

 

[invisibleplanet]

Did you get the pms too?

Neither did you. Probably something to do with the fact that you weren't sent any.

 

[butchersapron]

Neither did you. Probably something to do with the fact that you weren't sent any.

Oh i've had my hectoring aggressive pms off you, don't worry. How many did you send to various posters on this thread?

 

[invisibleplanet]

Black Patch is a small-scale Middle-Later Bronze Age settlement (1070 +/-70 to 830 +/1 80 BCE. Earlier interpretation viewed Black Patch as representing the emergence of close-knit extended families (or clans), consisting of a "reasonably self-sufficient, extended family group" with a "relatively autonomous economy", practising agriculture and animal husbandry, supplemented by hunting and gathering of wild foods. The same earlier interpretation suggested all huts were contemporary, with each hut being associated only with a single set of activities.

This interpretation has since been revised after further examination of artifactual and structural data to reveal two disinct phases of building, both with one single porched dwelling with an ancilliary building, possibly an animal shelter. Another later interpretation also revised the suggestion that it represented a "relatively autonomous economic unit" to functioning within a "large open system of social reproduction".

The site is absolutely typical of other Later Bronze Age dwellings elsewhere in Sussex, and typical of the southeast for the Later Bronze Age in having one major residential hut associated with one or more ancilliary structures (Russell 1996; Drewett 1979, 1982; Barrett and Needham 1988).

that seems at least 500 years later than I thought it was meant to have been, I'll have to go check why I thought it was for the elite, but I'm sure I read it somewhere (tho whatever I read could well have been superceded by later research)

I'm interested (from an academic pov) to know where you read that too.
From the perspective of trying to understand all the interpretations made for Black Patch.

 

[discokermit]

Did you get the pms too?

i got a very reasonable one off ip. i got a few more off daisy belboid which were just cuntish and patronising though. i think it was just after milking though so her teats might have been a bit sore.

 

[butchersapron]

*wags finger at bellers"

You've let us all down mate.

 

[discokermit]

*wags finger at bellers"

no need. cows moo. it's to be expected.

 

[belboid]

good of you to keep up your ignorant sexism.

what a comrade!

 

[discokermit]

mooooo.

 

[discokermit]

and i'm not your comrade, cunt.

 

[belboid]

of course not, your sexism rules you out on that score.

 

[discokermit]

sexism? because you are bovine? how does that work?

 

[discokermit]

considering cows and bulls are markedly different, if i had called your posting style 'bull like' it would have been innaccurate. you cud chewing idiot.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Could you two please call a truce? Please!

 

[weltweit]

Watched it tonight..

Quite enjoyed it.

I do think he makes more assumptions than an economist though.

Some of the theories he comes up with there is no evidence, at least none shown in the progam to support.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Watched it tonight..

Quite enjoyed it.

I do think he makes more assumptions than an economist though.

Some of the theories he comes up with there is no evidence, at least none shown in the progam to support.

Which theories are those?

 

[weltweit]

Which theories are those?

Loads ..

When he was in longbarrow in Wilts he said the neolithics buried their dead there en masse as if to make a shrine which they would reverentially visit to commune with the dead ancestors - bollocks, he has no clue that they did that or something completely different.

He kept on making claims like that which could not be backed up by known facts. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the program, I just think he didn't need to flesh out more than was actually known.

 

[weltweit]

Another, when in Ireland with the man who was locating walls in the peat.

He and a helper dug down to the top of a wall that the man had located and Oliver said touching the stone with his hand, "the last hands to touch this stone touched it 5,000 years ago - just imagine that" there was no way that he could support that if he had thought about it. I would have taken 2,000 years for the peat to start to cover the wall and all sorts of people could have touched and played on the wall in the meantime. Perhaps 2,000 years it may have been totally under the peat but his claim was simply too uber!! too uber for me anyhow