A Brief History Of Seven Killings - Marlon James
- Thread starter ringo
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little_legs
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I need someone to tell me who the real life Heckler is, please. After trawling page after page on the net, I still can't figure out the person he is based on.
ringo
Macaroni cheese controller
Blimey my memory, is he
starts out as one of the crew who attempt to assassinate the singer and eventually becomes part of his entourage?
little_legs
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little_legs
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ringo
Macaroni cheese controller
I'm not, I can't work it out
It's a very particular character path isn't it? It would be odd if it wasn't based on a real person when so many others were.
I've asked on the Pama Records forum as a few members were in the music business in Kingston at the time and others have discussed the subject with people who were around, but so far nobody has responded. Maybe when the US wakes up and gets online, or maybe it'll fall into the fairly large list of things/people they don't dare talk about. I still find it odd that so much of this is in Wikipedia etc, but that's just the stuff made public from trials and the media. There is a lot of stuff which nobody has served time for and can't be mentioned because there are some very scary people involved.
And you're right, the ID of Heckle doesn't seem to be discussed anywhere, which also might suggest that it happened and he's still alive and it can't be published yet.
little_legs
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ringo
Macaroni cheese controller
Could be. An old friend and journalist always refers to reggae as "badman business". Reggae is and always has been to no small degree controlled by gangsters. Many of the area dons also became record producers because that was the thing, still is. George Phang for example, who ran the Powerhouse label in the 80's, is also area leader of Arnett Gardens George Phang stays strong after taking 19 shots - News. The links between music and gangs is indistinguishable.
The same can be said about many of our beloved reggae singers and DJ's. Ranking Dread was a prime example, a singer who was at one time the most wanted crack selling "Yardie" in Britain (Ranking Dread - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Many of his spars are still well known in the London reggae scene and there's no way I'd mention their names or what they're rumoured to have done on here.
little_legs
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little_legs
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A magnificent book.
It’s relentlessly intense, violent, dark and funny. Even when I expected him to take a break to allow me to recover from the gut-wrenching violence, abuse, humiliation and death, he did not flinch, it was like lob city. I was particularly shocked with how people appeared to be taking pleasure in inflicting pain.
One of Bam-Bam’s chapters read like a grime/hip hop track. It was simultaneously harrowing and beautiful.
Leggo Beast has to be the real life Dennis "Leppo" Lobban.
Lots of references to western/Clint Eastwood & horror films (e.g. The Exorcist), somehow both genres have struck a chord with the 1970’s gangsters. He also pays homage to Kafka’s Metamorphosis.
I only have 2 minor objections: The acerbity in the dialog between the CIA folks felt a bit histrionic, it was fun to read, but I doubt they talk to each like that. Also, I was not convinced with the story line in which someone reticent about their identity carelessly lets someone in their apartment.
Things/People I am not sure if they are real or made up:
1. There is a mentioning of a diplomat who got out of the Iranian jail because he knew Koran in and out, I wonder if this based on a real person.
2. There are 23 families that run/control Jamaica?
3. Apparently Marley financially helped/bankrolled 3000 families in Kingston.
4. I still don’t know who Heckle and Lucy are.
If you are unfamiliar with the Jamaican idiom and the history of the period, this might help:
It’s relentlessly intense, violent, dark and funny. Even when I expected him to take a break to allow me to recover from the gut-wrenching violence, abuse, humiliation and death, he did not flinch, it was like lob city. I was particularly shocked with how people appeared to be taking pleasure in inflicting pain.
One of Bam-Bam’s chapters read like a grime/hip hop track. It was simultaneously harrowing and beautiful.
Leggo Beast has to be the real life Dennis "Leppo" Lobban.
Lots of references to western/Clint Eastwood & horror films (e.g. The Exorcist), somehow both genres have struck a chord with the 1970’s gangsters. He also pays homage to Kafka’s Metamorphosis.
I only have 2 minor objections: The acerbity in the dialog between the CIA folks felt a bit histrionic, it was fun to read, but I doubt they talk to each like that. Also, I was not convinced with the story line in which someone reticent about their identity carelessly lets someone in their apartment.
Things/People I am not sure if they are real or made up:
1. There is a mentioning of a diplomat who got out of the Iranian jail because he knew Koran in and out, I wonder if this based on a real person.
2. There are 23 families that run/control Jamaica?
3. Apparently Marley financially helped/bankrolled 3000 families in Kingston.
4. I still don’t know who Heckle and Lucy are.
If you are unfamiliar with the Jamaican idiom and the history of the period, this might help:
Words:
Buckra
Samfie
Facety
Natty
Downpression
Ba-bye = bisexual
Duppy = ghost
Kibba = shut up
Rahtid = terrible
Busha = boss, a man in charge
People & events
Michael Manley
Edward Seaga
Cindy Breakspeare
Wyatt Earp
Parathion deaths in 1976 and the subsequent Dr Alimantado’s song Poison Flour
Cubana de Aviación Flight 455
Jamaica State of Emergency 1976
Tonton Macoute
Smile Jamaica Concert
Stokely Carmichael
Eldridge Cleaver
Kitty Kelley
Gay Talese
The Soiling of Old Glory/Ted Landsmark
Mandingo by Kyle Onstott
The assassination of Airey Neave
Peter Tosh
Jacob Miller
Andrea True + song More, More, More
Twelve Tribes
Henry Morgan
East German Coffee Crisis
One Love Peace Concert
The Gleaner Company
Green Bay Massacre (1978)
Josef Issels
Griselda Blanco
Rikers
Stepin Fetchit
Cab Calloway
Bernie Goetz
Buckra
Samfie
Facety
Natty
Downpression
Ba-bye = bisexual
Duppy = ghost
Kibba = shut up
Rahtid = terrible
Busha = boss, a man in charge
People & events
Michael Manley
Edward Seaga
Cindy Breakspeare
Wyatt Earp
Parathion deaths in 1976 and the subsequent Dr Alimantado’s song Poison Flour
Cubana de Aviación Flight 455
Jamaica State of Emergency 1976
Tonton Macoute
Smile Jamaica Concert
Stokely Carmichael
Eldridge Cleaver
Kitty Kelley
Gay Talese
The Soiling of Old Glory/Ted Landsmark
Mandingo by Kyle Onstott
The assassination of Airey Neave
Peter Tosh
Jacob Miller
Andrea True + song More, More, More
Twelve Tribes
Henry Morgan
East German Coffee Crisis
One Love Peace Concert
The Gleaner Company
Green Bay Massacre (1978)
Josef Issels
Griselda Blanco
Rikers
Stepin Fetchit
Cab Calloway
Bernie Goetz
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ringo
Macaroni cheese controller
I think the CIA dialogue might be close to the truth. I mentioned upthread James Ellroy's American Tabloid, which deals with the CIA's involvement in the Bay of Pigs etc, and describes a similar attitude and pattern of behaviours. The CIA in the 70's and 80's seem to have travelled the world inciting revolutions, killing people, funding illegal activities for political/monetary gain and generally behaving any way they liked without fear of prosecution and with government backing. They tried to overthrow Castro, armed the Kingston gangs, got very involved in the Escobar/Columbia cocaine business, caused havoc in Haiti and Grenada etc etc. I think they were probably loud mouthed, arrogant, alpha male arseholes.
The population of Jamaica generally believe they are controlled by a small number of families descended from slave era governors and plantation owners. Some of the politicians certainly came from poor working class backgrounds but the establishment is old (slave) money.
Just about every successful Jamaican artist feeds many families, Marley is known to have looked after a lot of people.
Which character is Lucy? No idea about the rest.
The population of Jamaica generally believe they are controlled by a small number of families descended from slave era governors and plantation owners. Some of the politicians certainly came from poor working class backgrounds but the establishment is old (slave) money.
Just about every successful Jamaican artist feeds many families, Marley is known to have looked after a lot of people.
Which character is Lucy? No idea about the rest.
Idris2002
Stay Alive in '25
The CIA guy turned whistleblower is based on Philip Agee:
Philip Agee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Philip Agee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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PursuedByBears
Go stick your head in a pig
Lucy is mentioned by Tristan Phillips as being the only other survivor of the peace council, that the journalist needs to track her down as well. She isn't a POV character.
little_legs
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little_legs
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ringo
Yes, I agree with what you said about the CIA, what I was trying to say is that the passages with conversations between Adler and Diflorio read a bit like listening to Josh Lyman talking to Toby Ziegler, but that's ok, it did not take away anyting from them. As I said, it's only a minor objection.
Yes, I agree with what you said about the CIA, what I was trying to say is that the passages with conversations between Adler and Diflorio read a bit like listening to Josh Lyman talking to Toby Ziegler, but that's ok, it did not take away anyting from them. As I said, it's only a minor objection.
ringo
Macaroni cheese controller
ringo
Yes, I agree with what you said about the CIA, what I was trying to say is that the passages with conversations between Adler and Diflorio read a bit like listening to Josh Lyman talking to Toby Ziegler, but that's ok, it did not take away anyting from them. And I said it's only a minor objection.
I had to Google that, never watched it
ringo
Macaroni cheese controller
This is well worth a listen State of Emergency: Reggae Reflections on Jamaica’s Partisan Politics
Bunjaj Pali
registered dub abuser
sorry to come to this so late but have only just finished the book. Agree that this is an incredible novel. One question I can't dislodge from my brain ...
so I don't know who the real life Heckle is but I'm more intrigued by what happens to the fictional character. We learn from Eubie, as he's torturing Pierce, that he disappears after the Singer's death but he adds "nobody ever really vanish". He also says "the only one that might be alive, disappear in 1981 and nobody seem to know where he gone. But me". When Alex enquires where, Eubie says he's just told him but Alex "not too interested". So is Eubie hinting that he is in fact Heckle or have I completely misunderstood? There's no first person narrative from either of them which is also a bit strange given so many of the characters have voices. But then you'd expect Josie Wales to have recognised him. More confusingly in the midst of this conversation Eubie asks Pierce "you good with German?" and this reference I just don't get at all!! can anyone shed any light on this?
little_legs
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All I can say is that I know the feeling. Some day the truth will come out, in the meantime I can only offer my interpretation:
I don't believe Eubie is Heckle.
This is pure speculation but basically I concluded that Heckle was part of the group who attempted to kill Marley and when that did not work out he was picked up by the Americans, possibly hid at the US embassy, gave them the intel on the higher ups of the gangs, was given the US visa and possibly a new identity, and fled Jamaica with Marley. Eventually Heckle ends up living in the US under the witness protection program which I think is what Eubie was trying to say when he was talking to Pierce.
This is pure speculation but basically I concluded that Heckle was part of the group who attempted to kill Marley and when that did not work out he was picked up by the Americans, possibly hid at the US embassy, gave them the intel on the higher ups of the gangs, was given the US visa and possibly a new identity, and fled Jamaica with Marley. Eventually Heckle ends up living in the US under the witness protection program which I think is what Eubie was trying to say when he was talking to Pierce.
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alsoknownas
some bloke
Great book. I dragged the hardback around everywhere for a few months (slow reader! 
). Really was one of those books that became one of the main focus of my days (engineering elaborate commutes to fit in extra reading 
).
Most of all I loved the use of spoken (and thought) language - the way the uptown characters would have this sophisticated grasp of Queen's English, which would kind of evaporate into bits of patois under stress or passion; and how the downtown characters were seeped in patois, but, because they were high-school educated, would sometimes fall into a mode of contemplation that suited trad. English better; and how the author navigated the nuances and timing of this, I thought, was brilliant.
Have recommended it to a fair few people, all of whom have found it impenetrable!
; which did make me wonder whether an easy acquaintance with patois is kind of compulsory for enjoying the book in full flow. Like, I imagine, most people that have grown up in a mixed-up, diverse area, I didn't find the language difficult to read at all (had to look up one or two words!).
Really liked the promotion of the importance of vantage-point over perceived intellect, and how no character, no matter how well-placed or connected, could see the whole picture. Rings really true for me.
). Really was one of those books that became one of the main focus of my days (engineering elaborate commutes to fit in extra reading ).Most of all I loved the use of spoken (and thought) language - the way the uptown characters would have this sophisticated grasp of Queen's English, which would kind of evaporate into bits of patois under stress or passion; and how the downtown characters were seeped in patois, but, because they were high-school educated, would sometimes fall into a mode of contemplation that suited trad. English better; and how the author navigated the nuances and timing of this, I thought, was brilliant.
Have recommended it to a fair few people, all of whom have found it impenetrable!
; which did make me wonder whether an easy acquaintance with patois is kind of compulsory for enjoying the book in full flow. Like, I imagine, most people that have grown up in a mixed-up, diverse area, I didn't find the language difficult to read at all (had to look up one or two words!). Really liked the promotion of the importance of vantage-point over perceived intellect, and how no character, no matter how well-placed or connected, could see the whole picture. Rings really true for me.
Bunjaj Pali
registered dub abuser
Thank you!
Probably more likely than my theory. any idea about the reference to German?
Bunjaj Pali
registered dub abuser
Have recommended it to a fair few people, all of whom have found it impenetrable!
Yeh I agree, one or two phrases were difficult but generally didn't find it as difficult as the vernacular in Trainspotting or True History of the Kelly Gang.
couldn't agree more with your general assessment of the book.
little_legs
Поехали!
Again, only guessing here, but here it is:
I think Eubie was trying to say that if Pierce was a serious investigative journalist, he should have approached Josef Issels, the German fraudster healer who treated Marley, that maybe the doctor had some information on Marley's close circle and interviewing him could have led to Heckle
Entertaining read but not quite the masterpiece that people have hailed it as - in fact, in truth, it falls down on some of the basic elements that other people seem to bizarrely be celebrating.
First, the plot is a mess. There is no narrative drive or focus. It's interesting that Marlon James himself has said that for a very long time, he thought that he didn't even have a novel at all (as opposed to a series of impressions) and my view is that he didn't really ever sort that out.
Second, the dialogue doesn't function well as dialogue, pure and simple, which is a shame given the amount of effort he's made to (successfully) try and render patios on the page. He takes a risk through the way that he structures it that the speaker isn't easily identifiable, relying instead on the strength of his characterisation. The problem is that it doesn't work - very few of his characters, if any, have a unique voice at all and there are large stretches of dialogue which read as if they might as well have signs alongside saying "character A says this...", "character B says this..." and so on given the overriding sense that the author is just plonking sentence after sentence down without much thought as to how they come out of an individual person's mouth.
Third, the whole thing feels as if the author is sometimes hiding behind the detail of his research, ticking off stuff that must be described to lend the whole thing the necessary verisimilitude of the time. The problem is that he rather forces the issue as opposed to just using a few bits and pieces here and there to create a resonant impression. And when you read through the acknowledgments, it's really notable that he thanks multiple assistants for their research and, as far as I can recall, says something along the lines of having so much research to write about that he needs to line up another novel to do it justice, which is a really, really odd thing to say but very revealing - the stark impression is that this is a writer who is lead by his research - gatekeeper, motive force and so on.
First, the plot is a mess. There is no narrative drive or focus. It's interesting that Marlon James himself has said that for a very long time, he thought that he didn't even have a novel at all (as opposed to a series of impressions) and my view is that he didn't really ever sort that out.
Second, the dialogue doesn't function well as dialogue, pure and simple, which is a shame given the amount of effort he's made to (successfully) try and render patios on the page. He takes a risk through the way that he structures it that the speaker isn't easily identifiable, relying instead on the strength of his characterisation. The problem is that it doesn't work - very few of his characters, if any, have a unique voice at all and there are large stretches of dialogue which read as if they might as well have signs alongside saying "character A says this...", "character B says this..." and so on given the overriding sense that the author is just plonking sentence after sentence down without much thought as to how they come out of an individual person's mouth.
Third, the whole thing feels as if the author is sometimes hiding behind the detail of his research, ticking off stuff that must be described to lend the whole thing the necessary verisimilitude of the time. The problem is that he rather forces the issue as opposed to just using a few bits and pieces here and there to create a resonant impression. And when you read through the acknowledgments, it's really notable that he thanks multiple assistants for their research and, as far as I can recall, says something along the lines of having so much research to write about that he needs to line up another novel to do it justice, which is a really, really odd thing to say but very revealing - the stark impression is that this is a writer who is lead by his research - gatekeeper, motive force and so on.
ringo
Macaroni cheese controller
I disagree with everything you've said. You are spouting shit. You missed out.
In the end, the only character who I really cared about was Kim and even then only in that specific frame of the will they/won't they around Kenneth Colthirst.
That's illuminating because it means that the only bit of the narrative that really worked for me was the most hackneyed/cliched romantic subplot around an exciting/odd couple/forbidden/unrequited(?) love.
The rest of the characters loved no-one and no-one loved them which, along with the generally lax characterisation, rendered them paper thin and more or less entirely unsympathetic.
And some of the character's stories were also quite simply not believable and not because how they developed was intrinsically implausible but simply because it didn't really make any sense at all.
Weeper in NYC for instance just did not work at all when set against Weeper back in Jamrock.
But the odd thing is that it should have done - that should have been totally plausible that he had discovered some sort of gay nirvana in NYC that liberated him and exposed his vulnerabilities but it just did not work.
And the Alex Pierce character was off the scale badly drawn.
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ska invita
back on the other side
BUMP
Can anyone find a good source for CIA involvement in Jamaica, web or book? google is throwing up lots of article saying It Never Happened, Its A Myth
Can anyone find a good source for CIA involvement in Jamaica, web or book? google is throwing up lots of article saying It Never Happened, Its A Myth
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