Winter Olympics: Putin cautions gay visitors to Sochi

[Casually Red]

The reason I ask is because most countries, including Russia, I'm sure, have laws making it illegal for adults to have sexual contact with minors, or to exert influence on them in order to promote sexual contact.

That being the case, what is it about homosexuality that requires special laws above and beyond the laws of general application already in existence?

youd need to ask a Russian lawmaker Johnny , not my line of business. All Ive done is point out that theres no law in Russia against being gay, and that this law isnt against people being gay . Contrary to the propaganda suggesting otherwise . As well as pointing out the reasons behind that anti Russian propaganda gaining such unquestioning traction in the west . And manifesting itself as outright anti Russian prejudice .

eta

Personally though I reckon its twofold . Russia is chronically underpopulated, its facing a serious demographic timebomb . They just arent producing anywhere near enough kids . Theyve also experienced a lot of social disintegration . Putin has been pushing for traditional family values for years, especially concentrating upon the young generation . Sponsoring youth movements such as the Nashi . Encouraging youngsters to stay away from soical evils like drugs, get married and have kids for the sake of the motherlands future . Because of they dont Russia is pretty much fucked in the future .

Those promoting alternatives to that amongst the youngsters are seen as a hindrance and obstacle to his long term aims . So hes putting them out of the picture. At the same time this endears him to the Orthodox church, who give him their backing . Which gets him a serious amount of votes.

Now Im no expert but thats what I reckons happening . As far as Putins concerned Russias long term future trumps western liberal values. Hence hes enacted a law he reckons will be in Russias long term interests as well as his own short term interests. Whether hes right or not about the long term remains to be seen . But its certainly done him no harm in the short term .

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Personally though I reckon its twofold . Russia is chronically underpopulated, its facing a serious demographic timebomb . They just arent producing anywhere near enough kids . Theyve also experienced a lot of social disintegration . Putin has been pushing for traditional family values for years, especially concentrating upon the young generation . Sponsoring youth movements such as the Nashi . Encouraging youngsters to stay away from soical evils like drugs, get married and have kids for the sake of the motherlands future . Because of they dont Russia is pretty much fucked in the future ..

Implying that homosexuality is, to Putin, another social evil that will imperil Russia's future?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Those promoting alternatives to that amongst the youngsters .

Do you think that that is what's happening - gays are promoting 'alternatives', similar to how a salesman might promote the purchase of a Ford instead of a Peugeot?

The difficulty there is that being gay isn't a choice that gets made, like choice of automobile. It's what one is, or part of what one is is a better way of putting it. It can't be 'sold' to the kids. But some of those young people are gay, of that there's no doubt.

What will become of them in a place where the leader and the government believe that it is some sort of 'choice' - a choice of a social evil that will help bring about the ruination of the country?

Tell me again about the rights of gays in Russia.

 

[Casually Red]

Implying that homosexuality is, to Putin, another social evil that will imperil Russia's future?

well thats certainly what your implying Johnny, just like youve implied all sorts of other things . You asked me what heterosexual propaganda was and I told you to the best of my ability . Dont be complaining because you dont like the answer.

Putin desperately wants the kids to get married and have more kids, pronto . Because Russias utterly fucked if they dont , little doubt about that. Their population is dropping something like a million a year . Theyre also plauged with bad habits like alcoholism, drug addiction, chain smoking and all the bad health that goes with that . To say their younger population is often pretty fucked up , directionless and anarchic would be putting it mildly . Hes invested heavily in that message of clean living , patriotism, procreation and child rearing. He doesnt want anyone telling them its ok or better to do something else because he seriously reckons thats not in Russias interests .

Its also the case that inevitably a lot of this gay youth education stuff will be funded and promoted by foreign NGOs,because the russians just dont have a lot of experience of western liberal education and values. And such foreign liberal NGOs as we all well know often have political agendas over and above and beneath whatever western liberalism they tend to be flogging to the natives. So this law pretty much cramps their style too..The legal penalties are certainly harsher for foreign organisations than for Russians.. and those who use them for their own purposes. Which presumably is another reasons why the western governments are so up in arms about it . Because yet again their usual agents of political influence change are constrained.

Russia is not the west . Trying to pretend it is and everything should be the same is a load of bollocks . And arrogant bollocks at that . Itd just be more honest and healthy all round if the westerners just openly admitted the Russians are their enemies, always have been , always will be . Westerners in general dont like them and never will . Instead of trying to find a new excuse for a boycott everytime they host an international sporting event .Or a new excuse for outright disgust everytime they veto an imperialist war .

Then we wouldnt spend so much time quibbling about inferences and implying on the internet in order to justify reasons to hate Russia . As per usual .

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

well thats certainly what your implying Johnny, .

I'm implying no such thing. The first mention of 'social evil' is in your post, where you say that Putin is trying to encourage the kids to straighten up and fly right by avoiding various social evils.

Personally though I reckon its twofold . Russia is chronically underpopulated, its facing a serious demographic timebomb . They just arent producing anywhere near enough kids . Theyve also experienced a lot of social disintegration . Putin has been pushing for traditional family values for years, especially concentrating upon the young generation . Sponsoring youth movements such as the Nashi . Encouraging youngsters to stay away from soical evils like drugs, get married and have kids for the sake of the motherlands future . Because of they dont Russia is pretty much fucked in the future ..

 

[Casually Red]

Do you think that that is what's happening - gays are promoting 'alternatives', similar to how a salesman might promote the purchase of a Ford instead of a Peugeot?

The difficulty there is that being gay isn't a choice that gets made, like choice of automobile. It's what one is, or part of what one is is a better way of putting it. It can't be 'sold' to the kids. But some of those young people are gay, of that there's no doubt.

What will become of them in a place where the leader and the government believe that it is some sort of 'choice' - a choice of a social evil that will help bring about the ruination of the country?

Tell me again about the rights of gays in Russia.

its not illegal to be gay in Russia Johnny . No matter how much you want to imply it is . It just isnt . In my view Putins happy enough if their youngsters are indoctrinated to get married and procreate for the motherland and do that . If they reckon later on they made a mistake and are gay instead of heterosexual he couldnt care less , whther they stay closeted or come out . As long as they have the kids first .

 

[Casually Red]

I'm implying no such thing. The first mention of 'social evil' is in your post, where you say that Putin is trying to encourage the kids to straighten up and fly right by avoiding various social evils.

I referred specifically to drug addiction and alcohol addiction , which are social evils. Am I right or wrong ? Stop scraping the barrel to put words in my mouth implying other meanings Thats a cunts trick.

actually its nearly 4 in the morning, couldnt be arsed with your endless quibbling and disingenuous nitpicking . Its fucking boring .

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Theyre also plauged with bad habits like alcoholism, drug addiction, chain smoking and all the bad health that goes with that . To say their younger population is often pretty fucked up , directionless and anarchic would be putting it mildly ..

What does any of that have to do with some Russians being gay?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

its not illegal to be gay in Russia Johnny . No matter how much you want to imply it is . It just isnt . In my view Putins happy enough if their youngsters are indoctrinated to get married and procreate for the motherland and do that . If they reckon later on they made a mistake and are gay instead of heterosexual he couldnt care less , whther they stay closeted or come out . As long as they have the kids first .

What if they don't want to get married or have kids at all, and instead, want to live with and have sex exclusively with someone of the same sex?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I referred specifically to drug addiction and alcohol addiction , which are social evils. Am I right or wrong ? Stop scraping the barrel to put words in my mouth implying other meanings Thats a cunts trick.

actually its nearly 4 in the morning, couldnt be arsed with your endless quibbling and disingenuous nitpicking . Its fucking boring .

I just can't figure out why you're mentioning drug addiction, alcoholism, chain smoking etc, on a thread about homosexuality.

 

[Casually Red]

I just can't figure out why you're mentioning drug addiction, alcoholism, chain smoking etc, on a thread about homosexuality.

then your a bit of thick cunt johnny who wasnt following the thread and what I was saying . If you stay up even longer and read back over it you might figure it out

although I suspect its more likely you doing that thing were you deliberately act stupid again . Whatever, nighty night .

 

[Gingerman]

Casually Red and what do you suppose he meant by:

?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/17/vladimir-putin-gay-winter-olympics-children

Don't recall any other leader of a country hosting a Summer or Winter Olympics in the recent past coming out with shite like that before the event started....

 

[Casually Red]

Well im no spring chicken but I certainly dont remember the last time thousands of British families were queueing up outside foodbanks to stave off actual starvation. It was probably around the time of the jarrow march . The media politicisation of a Russian olympics is certain;ly nothing new . But its a handy distraction from peoples real problems and priorities. X factor wont be on for a while and its a few months till the white knuckle end of the premier league .

 

[RedDragon]

While I agree with Casually Red to some extent regarding opportunist trying to capitalise on anti-Russian sentiment to deny the impact of state sponsored homophobia in such a peculiar way certainly weakens their argument. The thread seems to have sunk into an incoherent rant.

 

[camouflage]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25785161
Dem Gays and their spreading "gay propaganda" ways

Sochi will forever be remembered in history as 'The Gay Olympic Games', people will ask "wasn't that one of those snowy ones where everyone had to be gay or summik? And a bunch of straight people got pissed off coz they sed it wuz sexist or whatever...."

 

[Idris2002]

 

[J Ed]

I will be awaiting grandstanding denunciations from Cameron, Kerry, Hague etc http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...al-revolution-reverse-education-contraception

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I know exactly what internationalism means, I also know what hypocrisy means . There were no calls for boycotts of British goods or sporting events over clause 28, no calls for international isolation and its perfectly, blindingly, obvious why . Internationalism doesnt mean hopping aboard a western government sponsored hatefest . Selective hypocrisy certainly does.

Internationalism means standing with people across borders, and bollocks to their cunting governments, whether they are headed by a Thatcher or a Putin. I'm not calling for a boycott, but the alternative to calling for a boycott is NOT to say 'it's their business' and wash your hands of it.

I have to add that from your posts on here I think that you don't know what internationalism means. You don't just say that you know what it means. You need to act and talk like you know what it means.

 

[Casually Red]

Internationalism means standing with people across borders, and bollocks to their cunting governments, whether they are headed by a Thatcher or a Putin. I'm not calling for a boycott, but the alternative to calling for a boycott is NOT to say 'it's their business' and wash your hands of it.

except it is their business, theyre a sovereign state and theyll conduct their affairs according to their own peoples decisions and not those made for them by the EU, United states , Stephen fry, Peter Tatchell or the Guardian. Internationalism also entails respect for peoples sovereignty, respect for their self determination . Respect for the rights of peoples to order their own societies and not have them ordered for them by hostile and belligerent foreign entities.
And if you want to take a stand alongside the Russian people youll have to take on board that they overwhelmingly approve of this law . Anyone wishing to disseminate gay sex education literature and the like to Russian youngsters will just have to wait until theyve reached 16 years of age. Otherwise if theyre Russian theyll receive a small fine. If their a foreign activist or NGO a larger fine, and the possibility of jail.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

except it is their business, theyre a sovereign state and theyll conduct their affairs according to their own peoples decisions and not those made for them by the EU, United states , Stephen fry, Peter Tatchell or the Guardian. Internationalism also entails respect for peoples sovereignty, respect for their self determination . Respect for the rights of peoples to order their own societies and not have them ordered for them by hostile and belligerent foreign entities.
And if you want to take a stand alongside the Russian people youll have to take on board that they overwhelmingly approve of this law . Anyone wishing to disseminate gay sex education literature and the like to Russian youngsters will just have to wait until theyve reached 16 years of age. Otherwise if theyre Russian theyll receive a small fine. If their a foreign activist or NGO a larger fine, and the possibility of jail.

But in a lot of instances, the protest against Russian treatment of gays starts with gay rights groups in other countries; not with the governments. You've talked about other countries - old foes of Russia - queueing up for another shot. And countries have gotten on the bandwagon. But the impetus usually hasn't come from govt, but from groups comprised of gay people, who feel a necessity to make the issue known.

 

[mentalchik]

except it is their business, theyre a sovereign state and theyll conduct their affairs according to their own peoples decisions and not those made for them by the EU, United states , Stephen fry, Peter Tatchell or the Guardian. Internationalism also entails respect for peoples sovereignty, respect for their self determination . Respect for the rights of peoples to order their own societies and not have them ordered for them by hostile and belligerent foreign entities.
And if you want to take a stand alongside the Russian people youll have to take on board that they overwhelmingly approve of this law . Anyone wishing to disseminate gay sex education literature and the like to Russian youngsters will just have to wait until theyve reached 16 years of age. Otherwise if theyre Russian theyll receive a small fine. If their a foreign activist or NGO a larger fine, and the possibility of jail.

and do you stand by this view in countries where it is a death sentence to be gay ?

 

[scalyboy]

But in a lot of instances, the protest against Russian treatment of gays starts with gay rights groups in other countries; not with the governments. You've talked about other countries - old foes of Russia - queueing up for another shot. And countries have gotten on the bandwagon. But the impetus usually hasn't come from govt, but from groups comprised of gay people, who feel a necessity to make the issue known.

Spot on, Johnny C.

 

[Casually Red]

But in a lot of instances, the protest against Russian treatment of gays starts with gay rights groups in other countries; not with the governments. You've talked about other countries - old foes of Russia - queueing up for another shot. And countries have gotten on the bandwagon. But the impetus usually hasn't come from govt, but from groups comprised of gay people, who feel a necessity to make the issue known.

who are often talking out of their holes in complete ignorance, Ive looked at some of their sites on this issue and theyre talking a load of balls, even claiming that its now illegal to be gay .

or stephen fry screaming auschwitz becase theyll have to wait until Russians are 16 , or that right wing Russian hating twat in the video . Or the twats pouring the Lithuanian produced vodka down the drains . Theyre fucking idiots .

Im taking the precise same line here as that Sochi drag queen you keep pretending you never linked to . Who says while its not perfect the western groups are talking a load of balls . And hes far from the only gay Russian voice saying that either .

 

[Casually Red]

and do you stand by this view in countries where it is a death sentence to be gay ?

yeah, nice one, compare a law which makes it a finable offence to distribute gay material to under 16s with the death sentence for being gay . Becase plainly theres no difference between murderous immorality and minor beauraucratic inconvenience .

ffs

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'distribute gay material to'?

You sound like Margaret Thatcher.

Actually no. You sound like Norman Tebbit.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

or stephen fry screaming auschwitz becase theyll have to wait until Russians are 16 ,.

Who are 'they'?

What is it that they are waiting to do?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Im taking the precise same line here as that Sochi drag queen you keep pretending you never linked to . Who says while its not perfect the western groups are talking a load of balls ..

I've not pretended any such thing.

 

[mentalchik]

yeah, nice one, compare a law which makes it a finable offence to distribute gay material to under 16s with the death sentence for being gay . Becase plainly theres no difference between murderous immorality and minor beauraucratic inconvenience .

ffs

Oh get off your high horse and stop being so bloody melodramatic.............i wasn't talking about that (as i think you well know) i was wondering about your view with regards to a countries right to conduct their 'affairs the way they see fit without any interference'

 

[RedDragon]

So because one Sochi drag queen says things are hunky-dory will should all shut-up whining about state sponsored oppression.

 

[Fuchs66]

or stephen fry screaming auschwitz becase theyll have to wait until Russians are 16 , or that right wing Russian hating twat in the video . Or the twats pouring the Lithuanian produced vodka down the drains . Theyre fucking idiots .

and the Gay bashing Russian extremists and the homophobic statements making Russian politicians, they're idiots too, in fact it may surprise you but you can find idiots/extremists in every society.
The difference being the examples you named don't have a law that they feel backs them up and they can use to justify their statements/actions.
Oh reading what you wrote again, are you insinuating that Stephen Fry is advocating pedophilia?
It certainly sounds like it.