Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
The EU and NATO bombed serbia for refusing to accept its ethnic Albanian minority in the serbian province of kosovo had the right to break away .
Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
a minority of jihadists there want that . The people who live there dont .
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
With a Victoria Nuland picked Prime Minister, let's not forget...
You didn't answer my question though.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
BTW the BBCs John Simpson is now claiming in his telly report that its not actually Crimean russians who are demonstrating against Kiev, instead all those people have been bussed in from Russia. Seriously, thats what hes just said on my telly in his report.
As yet no BBC journalists have resigned on air, and no U75 resident lefty sage has ridiculed anyone for watching the BBC.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
so, these talks . Basically as far as I can see the wests pretty daft tactic has been to repeatedly attempt to have the Russian government meet the juntas representatives, which of course would immediately have conferred legitimacy to the coup and delegitimised Russias basis for its position . Russia naturally enough refuses to meet them as it doesnt recognise them . The juntas rep also took a huff and made moves for the airport but the yanks persuaded him to stay.
The west cant strongarm Russia into this suicidal position, no matter how much it huffs and puffs. Its highly unlikely Russia will bend until the junta bring something substantial to the table. Whatever that is remains to be seen. Russia insists the template for progress is the national unity government process agreed upon by all sides in february . So until thats on the table its unlikely Russia will talk to the junta.
the much hyped talk of sanctions just isnt going to work on Russia. Its a total red herring and seems little more than a western fig leaf for impotence.The junta however are the people highly vulnerable to western pressure, and the west certainly doesnt want to lose any more face . While furthermore the western powers are deeply divided, as was forseeable . I believe Russia is counting on the west...or elements within..seeing the sensible option out of this crisis will be simply to implement what all parties actually sat down and agreed upon back in february . Before the coup reneged upon it and sent the fash on the rampage.
Crimea is a fait accompli, the guys in balaclavas arent going anywhere for the forseeable . Meanwhile the anti junta position in eastern ukraine continues to strengthen . Which means times not on the juntas side. Or the wests.
In my view its the reneging on the unity government deal which sparked the Russian intervention. And the return to it which will bring this crisis to a close. As all parties bar the fash right sektor sat down and agreed to it it shouldnt be that big a problem if sense prevails. The west may well try and insist the coup is a fact of life, a done deal that isnt going anywhere. The Russians will in turn just say ditto to Crimea. And probably a few other places in the east.
The west cant strongarm Russia into this suicidal position, no matter how much it huffs and puffs. Its highly unlikely Russia will bend until the junta bring something substantial to the table. Whatever that is remains to be seen. Russia insists the template for progress is the national unity government process agreed upon by all sides in february . So until thats on the table its unlikely Russia will talk to the junta.
the much hyped talk of sanctions just isnt going to work on Russia. Its a total red herring and seems little more than a western fig leaf for impotence.The junta however are the people highly vulnerable to western pressure, and the west certainly doesnt want to lose any more face . While furthermore the western powers are deeply divided, as was forseeable . I believe Russia is counting on the west...or elements within..seeing the sensible option out of this crisis will be simply to implement what all parties actually sat down and agreed upon back in february . Before the coup reneged upon it and sent the fash on the rampage.
Crimea is a fait accompli, the guys in balaclavas arent going anywhere for the forseeable . Meanwhile the anti junta position in eastern ukraine continues to strengthen . Which means times not on the juntas side. Or the wests.
In my view its the reneging on the unity government deal which sparked the Russian intervention. And the return to it which will bring this crisis to a close. As all parties bar the fash right sektor sat down and agreed to it it shouldnt be that big a problem if sense prevails. The west may well try and insist the coup is a fact of life, a done deal that isnt going anywhere. The Russians will in turn just say ditto to Crimea. And probably a few other places in the east.
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
that has the look of a story that could grow legs. Its notable that report emphasises Olga Bogomolets is someone important enough that both the Estonian FM and Ashton are on first name terms with her. I saw another report were Olga Bogomolets herself had been offered a post in the juntas government but refused to take it. Her belief at the juntas role in the massacre could well turn out to be a factor in that decision.
I hope for Olga Bogomolets sake shes somewhere safe at the minute.
eta
Ive been saying since the day of the killings this is what Ive suspected and this has strengthened that belief to a large extent. Afterall the Berkut were armed to the teeth with AKs. If they wanted to massacre people in the square thats a much more effective weapon for the task than sniping at them. In fact it was pretty much designed for it . With snipers though its a lot more difficult to work out were the firing is coming from.
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
The Estonian foreign minister has said the very same thing to Catherine Ashton as soon as he returned from the scene of the killings . According to him so has the doctor who was dealing with the dead and wounded at the scene, and who has since refused the offer of a government post.
I think that requires an independent enquiry, not the people now accused by completely independent parties of doing it, and who benefitted massively from it, investigating something that could completely destroy them.
Youre plainly happier with a facepalm though .
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
So, if it wasn't for Western plotting and coup-causing: the Ukrainians would be loving the Russians?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Apparently Russia has 12 2S7 Pions in operational service. Ukraine has 99.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I think you'll struggle making that one fly.
Jihadists might be in control of the independence movement now but that's a consequence of Russia's extremely brutal repression - analagous to Israel's de facto creation of Hamas as a replacement for the PLO. It's much easier getting away with stuff against "jihadis" than it is against freedom fighters or just plain old civilians, standard procedure in many places now from Algeria to China.
sure. a country that had over 50% of it's population expelled under Stalin-which is recognised as genocide by the EU, clearly love their Russian masters.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is the Olga who says the Estonian fm is talking out of his hole about what she said to him. Which, I expect, in this febrile piling of scenarios on top of scenarios built on very little, well become evidence that she actually did make the claims that she now denies but she's scared for safety.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No he didn't. He said no such thing. I urge everyone to listen to the tape of his comments rather than taking this nonsense at face value. I fear it's too late for some though and this confidently told nonsense has now solidified into fact.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
The Jihadists became more prominent during the second war. And you're seriously not going to defend Kadyrov Jr., are you?
newbie
undisambiguated
yes. Blackwater seems to have arrived in this thread yesterday evening, courtesy of one Sergei Markov (who from his wiki page appears to be a rather unlikeable fellow) on C4 news. However "Your search - Sergei Markov blackwater - did not match any news results." (same for Academi) so no news organisation of any stripe, even rt, has so far picked it up and run with it.
which sfaics just makes it a random comment from a Putin mouthpiece, only very slightly more credible than me wondering if the guys in plain uniforms in Crimea were supplied by G4S.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
This thread is like a first-year poli sci course on drugs. Remember: papers of no less than 500 words due before Spring Break! 
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Got a link?
andysays
Love and solidarity
I predict this will now be being reported as "fact" by someone by lunchtime
When WW3 breaks out in the Crimea, we'll know who to blame...
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I wonder if they're feminist-fascists?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
A member of Pussy Riot speaks out on Ukraine:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116823/pussy-riots-maria-alyokhina-putins-war-crimea
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116823/pussy-riots-maria-alyokhina-putins-war-crimea
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
black shorts, red knickers - signs are good.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Oh dear CR, if even thriller thinks you've gone too far you should probably consider dialling it back a notch.
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Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
For extra interest: make them fight on the moon!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Sure, posted it yesterday as well but was buried under CR's oh so confident bluster that not only did she and the estonian FM both say this was the case but that they were basing it on detailed british forensics experts investigation - a claim pulled entirely out of the air - but, as normal confidently stated so as not to receive any challenge:
Our correspondent, Damien McElroy, has spoken to the doctor at the centre of the claims that snipers that shot people in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders:
Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.
"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."
But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything.
"I was a doctor helping to save people on the square. There were 15 people killed on the first day by snipers. They were shot directly to the heart, brain and arteries. There were more than 40 the next day, 12 of them died in my arms.
"Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine. We need good answers on the basis of expertise."
Mr Paet's assertion that an opposition figure was behind the Maidan massacre was not one she could share.
"I think you can only say something like this on the basis of fact," she said. "Its not correct and its not good to do this. It should be based on fact."
She said the new government in Kiev had assured her a criminal investigation had begun but that she had not direct contact with it so far.
"They told me they have begun a criminal process and if they say that I believe them. The police have not given me any information on it."
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brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
er...I did actually post the clip of that "bugged call" between Paet and Ashston.
As Butchers has said, there were reports almost immediately that Olga Bogomolets denies saying that to Paet; in fact she explicitly confirmed that she had no knowledge of the injuries/fatalities amongst the Ukrainian security forces....
15.17 Our correspondent, Damien McElroy, has spoken to the doctor at the centre of the claims that snipers that shot people in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders:
Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.
"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."
But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything.
"I was a doctor helping to save people on the square. There were 15 people killed on the first day by snipers. They were shot directly to the heart, brain and arteries. There were more than 40 the next day, 12 of them died in my arms.
"Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine. We need good answers on the basis of expertise."
Mr Paet's assertion that an opposition figure was behind the Maidan massacre was not one she could share.
"I think you can only say something like this on the basis of fact," she said. "Its not correct and its not good to do this. It should be based on fact."
She said the new government in Kiev had assured her a criminal investigation had begun but that she had not direct contact with it so far.
"They told me they have begun a criminal process and if they say that I believe them. The police have not given me any information on it."
Given what Bogomolets is reported to have said, to continue to give credibility to the Russian spin about Blackwater's involvement appears somewhat curious. Persisting with such a speculative line appears to suggest that you believe that the former regime/Russians are unique as a state in not being willing to fire upon the citizens of 'their' state.
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