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Ukraine

sunny jim said:
Cant you even tell from the photos that they are two different blokes?
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is he seriously saying that Chechens the same Ewok ?


is this fucking evidence of spetnaz too..itd be good enough for the guardian anyway

orli_so_18.jpg
 
Casually Red said:
good find that,a chechen army commander and a Ukrainian ex teacher and trade unionist accused of being the same Russian by the US government. ill be popping the finer points on the deliberate fake thread . Sure therell be plenty more at this rate.
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Is that what it said? My chrome (which is an individual with it's own tastes, talents and preferences) wouldn't translate the site, just spewed out reams of Yoda-grammar nonsense with lumps of German in it, like carrot. I take it "the" Spetsnaz Womble is in fact a trade Unionist, some other completely different guy who's a teacher, and another (additional) fella who's a Chechen army commander, and therefore three completely separate individuals and not the same womble at all. Or even Spetsnaz.
 
copliker said:


The "anti-fascists" must assume he's a "zionist".
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leaving aside your ability to judge anyones anti fascist credentials in a country were fascists actually killed millions of people, i think they just assume hes a spy, who has chosen to travel with an israeli as opposed to an american passport . People....many of them neo nazis.. are actually abducting and killing these people. Theyre surrounded by nazis in tanks whove announced theyll be attacking any minute. Nosey strangers from abroad are going to get picked up . If hes claiming to be an American but carrying a passport that says different his true identity is going to be an issue. Whether the passports Israeli, Saudi or Outer Mongolian.
 
camouflage said:
Is that what it said? My chrome couldn't translate the site, just spewed out reams of Yoda-grammar nonsense with lumps of German in it, like carrot. I take it "the" Spetsnaz Womble is in fact a trade Unionist, some other completely different guy who's a teacher, and another (additional) fella who's a Chechen army commander, and therefore three completely separate individuals and not the same womble at all. Or even Spetsnaz.
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Redbeard with the spetznaz patch is a chechen army commander. Pictures not taken in Ossetia at all, and you can see the guys behind him have more Chechen type facial characteristics than most Russians. His names Khamzat Gairbekov. Former deputy commander of a Chechen army Spetznaz Vostok batallion.

Greybeard in Ukraine is a guy by the name of Ivan Aleksandrovich Karchagin-Basorgin, from a place called Krasny Luch, near Lugansk in east Ukraine. 64 years old, retired teacher, currently a journalist and active in a trade union . If you go to this link of the Ukrainian Federation of Trade Unions youll see them identifying him and linking to a series of articles hes written for them.

http://pdrs.dp.ua/type/type75.html

the piece also says that these photos have deliberately been released blurred as if theyre taken on rubbish mobile phones. but when the originals are located its clear they werent and both men are clearly distinguishable. Which they definitely are.

So gringo speak with massive forked tongue.
 
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Does anyone actually have direct translations of the leaders of the 'pro-Russian'/'anti-Kiev' faction explaining what their demands are?
 
Casually Red said:
Redbeard with the spetznaz patch is a chechen army commander. Pictures not taken in Ossetia at all, and you can see the guys behind him have more Chechen type facial characteristics than most Russians. His names Khamzat Gairbekov. Former deputy commander of a Chechen army Spetznaz Vostok batallion.

Greybeard in Ukraine is a guy by the name of Ivan Aleksandrovich Karchagin-Basorgin, from a place called Krasny Luch, near Lugansk in east Ukraine. 64 years old, retired teacher, currently a journalist and active in a trade union . If you go to this link of the Ukrainian Federation of Trade Unions youll see them identifying him and linking to a series of articles hes written for them.

http://pdrs.dp.ua/type/type75.html

the piece also says that these photos have deliberately been released blurred as if theyre taken on rubbish mobile phones. but when the originals are located its clear they werent and both men are clearly distinguishable. Which they definitely are.

So gringo speak with massive forked tongue.
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Listen and read the confidence. Miss the support. Laugh at openly presenting others words as his own.
 
Casually Red said:
there isnt just one faction, its a string of factions in different areas. I posted one translated set of demands up on the previous page.
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No it's not, it's a series off localised action by pro-russian vets with Russian support. Little local support for their pro-russian style capitalist aims.
 
Aprons right, down with the Russian capitalist imperialist fash. It's a New Russian Century they're after, full spectrum dominance. You'll have noticed I think, the string or Russian bases across Canada and Mexico. Obviously the US is capitalist too but it's not the firey engine of the system of international capital that Russia is. I just thank fuck the Left is awake.
 
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Casually Red said:
On the subject of Putin and what Russia is up to. He never denied Russian troops were in Crimea. In fact he pointed out over 20,000 of them were entitled to be there. Now hes formally admitted the little green men were definitely Russian troops as well, something he never denied at the time, just never admitted.
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March 4th

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140304/188087074/Putin-Denies-Sending-Russian-Troops-to-Crimea.html

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday that his country has not deployed any troops in Crimea recently and has no plans to annex the peninsula. Ukrainian officials and media have claimed in recent days that clandestine Russian army troops without insignias were deployed in the southeastern Ukrainian region, which has a majority ethnic Russian population. When asked about the identity of the troops, Putin told a press conference that they are “local militias.” They are wearing Russian-style fatigues because such attire is available in army shops across the former Soviet Union, Putin said.
 
classicdish said:
March 4th

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140304/188087074/Putin-Denies-Sending-Russian-Troops-to-Crimea.html

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday that his country has not deployed any troops in Crimea recently and has no plans to annex the peninsula. Ukrainian officials and media have claimed in recent days that clandestine Russian army troops without insignias were deployed in the southeastern Ukrainian region, which has a majority ethnic Russian population. When asked about the identity of the troops, Putin told a press conference that they are “local militias.” They are wearing Russian-style fatigues because such attire is available in army shops across the former Soviet Union, Putin said.
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what bit of there were already 20000 Russian troops deployed in crimea do you not get ?
 
classicdish said:
March 4th

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140304/188087074/Putin-Denies-Sending-Russian-Troops-to-Crimea.html

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday that his country has not deployed any troops in Crimea recently and has no plans to annex the peninsula. Ukrainian officials and media have claimed in recent days that clandestine Russian army troops without insignias were deployed in the southeastern Ukrainian region, which has a majority ethnic Russian population. When asked about the identity of the troops, Putin told a press conference that they are “local militias.” They are wearing Russian-style fatigues because such attire is available in army shops across the former Soviet Union, Putin said.
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that attribution is nothing like as unequivocal as the direct quote "There are no Russian units, special services or instructors in the east of Ukraine". Troops were unquestionably in Crimea, so as said by both SJ & CR, there is plausible deniability hinging around 'deployed'. Capturing one to parade on telly wouldn't have proved anything.

in east Ukraine right now it would.
 
butchersapron said:
No it's not, it's a series off localised action by pro-russian vets with Russian support. Little local support for their pro-russian style capitalist aims.
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Pro-Russian vets for sure, but certainly not exclusively. I think it's clear that in Donetsk and Crimea there is significant pro-Russian, anti-Kiev sentiment. There's plenty of factual evidence to show that the insurgents have popular support in the region. a- They voted for Yanukovych, b- a lot of the local police and Ukrainian military defected c- the referendum in Crimea to join Russia won by a large majority and was approved by international observers d- the strength of economic and family ties to Russia in the Eastern regions and e- I don't think it is possible to take over a region for this long without a strong base of popular support.
The only factual evidence I've seen to contradict the idea of mass support is polls which show a majority of people in Donetsk support a united Ukraine, but even that doesn't mean anything because they are demanding federalisation, not joining Russia.

And "capitalist aims" doesn't really enter into the equation at all. Both sides - the Maidan and the Donetsk protestors - are primarily motivated by national identity, not by any class politics. And the Maidan even more so, given the element of soviet era nostalgia in the east, compared to the Kiev protestors for whom socialism is a completely dirty word. (for understandable reasons of course)

I'm not denying that Russia is involved, but to cast recent events as simply a small group of military men with backing by Russia is as foolish as saying that the Maidan was just a small group of paramilitaries backed by Washington. I recommend you watch Simon Ostrovsky's dispatches on Vice Magazine, there's more first hand footage of events in Donetsk than anything else you could find, and I think it gives a fairly clear picture of events on the ground.

As socialists, we shouldn't be taking either side in this crisis, but you seem to be coming down a lot harder on the Donetsk uprising than the Maidan for some reason.
 
There isn't enough discussion on here about the geopolitical significance of events in Ukraine. Surely as socialists we should be discussing the dynamics behind inter-imperialist conflicts and how they relate to the economic crisis?

What is at stake in the Ukraine crisis is the USA capturing the European market for shale gas as a way to revive it's ailing economy. This is also the biggest threat posing Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union, as the Russian economy is almost entirely dependent on energy exports. If they lose the European gas market, their economy will go into a severe recession, probably larger than the one they had after the Soviet Union broke up.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ompanies-climate-change-crisis-shock-doctrine
 
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27138300

The Ukrainian military claims to have retaken Mariupol in the south of Donetsk with no casualties, however local news is claiming that the rebels still control the mayor's office.

The failed operation last time seemed to be beginning in the far north of the region, this time they seem to be trying to start from the south. It looks like the two occupied cities in the far south of Donetsk are relatively isolated from the cluster of 9 or so cities in central and northern Donetsk, so I guess Kiev might be looking to retake the weaker cities to damage the rebels morale before moving up to retake the rest of the province. When that happens, I suspect there will be a bloodbath.

edit: attacking from the south rather than the north is probably to do with the armoured vehicles captured in Kramatorsk last time.

edit again: looks like they're attacking North and South simultaneously, Russia Today is reporting that armoured vehicles are entering Slavyansk and fighting has broken out.

http://rt.com/news/154544-slavyansk-fighting-east-ukraine/
 
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Casually Red said:
leaving aside your ability to judge anyones anti fascist credentials in a country were fascists actually killed millions of people...
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Which is pretty much akin to your ability to judge a state whose primacy in the Soviet Union actually killed millions of Ukrainians too, in about the same amount of time it took the Nazis.
Of course, remembering the Holodomor having occurred is inconvenient, when you're trying to simplistically label people.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Which is pretty much akin to your ability to judge a state whose primacy in the Soviet Union actually killed millions of Ukrainians too, in about the same amount of time it took the Nazis.
Of course, remembering the Holodomor having occurred is inconvenient, when you're trying to simplistically label people.
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ive simplistically labelled openly neo nazi and far right organisations and militias as such . Ive simplistically labelled a western backed putschist junta comprising such elements as such, because thats what it is . At no time have I ever labelled any section of the ukrainian population as anything . And if youve any evidence I ever have feel free to show it .
Im happy though to simplistically label a number of British leftists on here as fucking wankers, happy to condemn and deride large swathes of the Ukrainian population for standing up against such a junta , refusing to recognise their legitmacy and taking steps to arm themselves and defend themselves and their towns from them . For which theyve recieved nowt but scorn and sometimes open hatred from absolute wankers on here calling themselves leftists, in fact who regard themselves as the font of true socialism and smell their own right on farts in public . Who havent a single word of condemnation for the fact tanks and helicopter gunships are now being used by a junta against its own population with its American backers open encouragement .
Other labels that comes to mind are running dogs and Russophobes. Because there doesnt seem to be any other explanation for that . Its pretty mindboggling frankly .
 
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