free spirit
more tea vicar?
apparently - that's the anti-communist Ukrainian nationalist faction from WW2 led by Bandera (the guy in the pic earlier).The O.U.N.–B’s armed wing, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, used this flag:
Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
They've burnt down the Trade Unions building, apparently.
http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/
http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/
free spirit
more tea vicar?
That sounded like it was the protestors who'd burned it down, which would have been very worrying.
Looks like it was burned after / during the operation by the police to take it over, after it had been occupied as part of the protest.
Mustn't grumble
Member
Not comparable to the above (& thanx a lot) but Stephen Cohen, biographer of Bukharin, wrote last Tuesday on Ukraine & Russia:
http://www.thenation.com/article/178344/distorting-russia#
EDIT: whoops, Camouflage linked this last Friday!
Last edited:
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
free spirit
more tea vicar?
On Bandera, the OUN-B and that flag...
Actually I think that flag was the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), the Ukranian partisans who towards the end of WW2 fought both the Germans and the Soviets, under he leadership of the OUN-B, but as a wider anti occupation army than just the OUN-B.
From what I've been reading, it'd seem that there are effectively 2-3 different parts of the UPA,
1 - the original OUN-B fascist Nazi collaborators who originally fought with the Nazis to liberate the Ukraine from Polish and Russian occupation, then collaborated with for the first couple of years of Nazi occupation, including participation in the holocaust, and massacres and ethnic cleansing of Poles, Jews and Russians...
2 - The partisans of the UPA who joined to fight against Nazi & Soviet occupation, and continued with the ethnic cleansing, as well as attacking Ukrainians who opposed them.
3 - The anti-occupation UPA who fought the Soviet occupation for 5 years after the supposed end of WW2, with around 100,000 fighters claimed to have been killed by the Soviet army, and a lot more sent off to work camps in Siberia. I get the impression that this force became a much wider ranging anti-occupation force than the previous largely fascist organisation from the war, and will certainly be the part of the organisation that has the most wide ranging links as millions of Ukrainians now must have parents / grandparents / relatives who fought and died with the UPA in this period.
I suspect that many / most in these protests are identifying mostly with the much broader anti-soviet occupation era version of the UPA when using those flags and showing the image of Bandera than they are identifying specifically with the original fascist starting point for it, and the war crimes that it committed.
The level of Soviet repression and killing while putting down this insurgency will also explain a lot of the deep hatred of Russia, particularly in the West of Ukraine, and why they're not going to accept a move away from Europe towards Russia.
Not that there won't also be a fair amount of genuine fascists there, but I think this history of the organisation probably helps to explain some of the historic reasoning for why none fascists might be prapared to share the baracades with fascists under the banner of the UPA when fighting against the pro-Russian factions in the country.
To give an idea of the level of support for this in the West of the Ukraine, here are 2009 poll figures for opinions of Bandera
The picture is very different in Central and particularly East Ukraine.
So my conclusion fwiw would be that the widespread presence of this flag, alongside the Ukrainian flag isn't necessarily that indicative of the level of outright fascists within the protest, and it's certainly helped me to get my head around why such large numbers of protestors who aren't fascists themselves are prepared to fight alongside fascists under these 2 flags.
Some background reading for anyone interested.
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/feb/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democratic-kiev/
http://hnn.us/article/122778
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
Actually I think that flag was the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), the Ukranian partisans who towards the end of WW2 fought both the Germans and the Soviets, under he leadership of the OUN-B, but as a wider anti occupation army than just the OUN-B.
From what I've been reading, it'd seem that there are effectively 2-3 different parts of the UPA,
1 - the original OUN-B fascist Nazi collaborators who originally fought with the Nazis to liberate the Ukraine from Polish and Russian occupation, then collaborated with for the first couple of years of Nazi occupation, including participation in the holocaust, and massacres and ethnic cleansing of Poles, Jews and Russians...
2 - The partisans of the UPA who joined to fight against Nazi & Soviet occupation, and continued with the ethnic cleansing, as well as attacking Ukrainians who opposed them.
3 - The anti-occupation UPA who fought the Soviet occupation for 5 years after the supposed end of WW2, with around 100,000 fighters claimed to have been killed by the Soviet army, and a lot more sent off to work camps in Siberia. I get the impression that this force became a much wider ranging anti-occupation force than the previous largely fascist organisation from the war, and will certainly be the part of the organisation that has the most wide ranging links as millions of Ukrainians now must have parents / grandparents / relatives who fought and died with the UPA in this period.
I suspect that many / most in these protests are identifying mostly with the much broader anti-soviet occupation era version of the UPA when using those flags and showing the image of Bandera than they are identifying specifically with the original fascist starting point for it, and the war crimes that it committed.
The level of Soviet repression and killing while putting down this insurgency will also explain a lot of the deep hatred of Russia, particularly in the West of Ukraine, and why they're not going to accept a move away from Europe towards Russia.
Not that there won't also be a fair amount of genuine fascists there, but I think this history of the organisation probably helps to explain some of the historic reasoning for why none fascists might be prapared to share the baracades with fascists under the banner of the UPA when fighting against the pro-Russian factions in the country.
To give an idea of the level of support for this in the West of the Ukraine, here are 2009 poll figures for opinions of Bandera
The picture is very different in Central and particularly East Ukraine.
So my conclusion fwiw would be that the widespread presence of this flag, alongside the Ukrainian flag isn't necessarily that indicative of the level of outright fascists within the protest, and it's certainly helped me to get my head around why such large numbers of protestors who aren't fascists themselves are prepared to fight alongside fascists under these 2 flags.
Some background reading for anyone interested.
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/feb/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democratic-kiev/
http://hnn.us/article/122778
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
it represents blood and soil, if i remember correctly
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You're going to regret that post very soon.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
Rt saying 25 dead.
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
What i presume are live pictures here: http://rt.com/on-air/ukraine-central-kiev-protest/
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Not wanting to sound like a dick but that reads to me like fairly heavy wishful thinking.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
What, if anything, would be the trigger for direct Russian intervention?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/68649/dress-orthodox-jew-restaurant-euro-2012-city-lviv-ukraine
holy shit
i went to kiev actually, and odessa. One thing was very noticeable in Kiev was the fact there was huge levels of inequality, there are parts of the city that look posher than most parts of London, and lots of expensive western shops opening up (even marks and spencers etc) but there are also areas which are really fucking dirt poor, polluted, etc, and the wages most people are getting are far below the prices in these shops
holy shit
i went to kiev actually, and odessa. One thing was very noticeable in Kiev was the fact there was huge levels of inequality, there are parts of the city that look posher than most parts of London, and lots of expensive western shops opening up (even marks and spencers etc) but there are also areas which are really fucking dirt poor, polluted, etc, and the wages most people are getting are far below the prices in these shops
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
i would assume a significant level of anti-Russian/Russian-speaking minority violence - however, to be hugely provocotive, after Syria, our bear wrestling friend is not a man who looks like he need be overly concerned about other peoples reactions when he backs up his friends/clients...
Exactly what I was thinking. If the government is about to fall, I assume Russia will invade. Repeat of Hungary 1956 & Czechoslovakia 1968.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
And Georgia 2008.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Right on both counts - but if the Kremlin did feel it was required by the situation, they probably would.
Would the western powers respond in kind, given that western publics (especially in the US) are worn out by years of war since 2001?
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Different situations when it comes to bringing out the banhammer.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Fingers in separatist pies. No invasion or occupation.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
There's a risk of it spilling into Moldova etc (and I'm not sure how effective Russian/Transnistrian troops would be at holding back an attack from both sides)
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
I read this touch on the situation in Ukraine in an article about neo-liberalism and economic violence:
-Prof Michael Hudson
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/17/an-interview-with-michael-hudson-on-economic-violence/
Is this true, I vaguely remember a judge being assassinated the other day, can anyone comment as to how true this assertion is about US kill-teams running around in the Ukraine? I know they're in there meddling somehow, but actual wet-work? Scary if true, if they are then Russia must know, how will they respond!?
-Prof Michael Hudson
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/17/an-interview-with-michael-hudson-on-economic-violence/
Is this true, I vaguely remember a judge being assassinated the other day, can anyone comment as to how true this assertion is about US kill-teams running around in the Ukraine? I know they're in there meddling somehow, but actual wet-work? Scary if true, if they are then Russia must know, how will they respond!?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Really important that a lot of us don't fall into the state and Russian state groupies trap of now relegating all social anger as fascist motivated. Lat night i made the mistake of comparing the fascists planned offensive with the march on Rome. I was wrong. It's more like the 34 crisis in France.
No way America or any other Western power will confront Russia over Ukraine. It's in their sphere of influence. Angry speeches would be all that would happen as Putin's tanks roll in.I read this touch on the situation in Ukraine in an article about neo-liberalism and economic violence:
-Prof Michael Hudson
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/17/an-interview-with-michael-hudson-on-economic-violence/
Is this true, I vaguely remember a judge being assassinated the other day, can anyone comment as to how true this assertion is about US kill-teams running around in the Ukraine? I know they're in there meddling somehow, but actual wet-work? Scary if true, if they are then Russia must know, how will they respond!?
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