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Turkey, ISIS, Kurds and Syria

Oh no, what a terrible mix of powerful factors, including the worst political shit, combining into a very unstable situation.

Turkey sends ground forces into Iraq after militant attacks - BBC News

Turkish ground forces have crossed into Iraq in pursuit of Kurdish militants for the first time since a ceasefire two years ago.

Government officials said the incursion was a "short-term" measure to hunt down PKK (Kurdistan Workers' Party) rebels.

Turkish warplanes also launched a wave of air strikes on PKK bases in northern Iraq on Tuesday.

Meanwhile, at least 14 Turkish police officers died in a bomb attack blamed on Kurdish militants on Tuesday.

The attack in eastern Igdir province came a day after suspected PKK bombs killed at least 16 Turkish soldiers in south-eastern Hakkari region.

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the PKK had suffered "serious damage" inside and outside of Turkey and was in a state of "panic".

Several thousand people have protested in cities across Turkey against PKK violence and the offices of the pro-Kurdish HDP party have come under attack.

There is now serious concern that the violence could spiral out of control.

Turkey is gearing up for snap elections on 1 November after the ruling AK Party lost its overall majority in June elections and failed to form a coalition government.

It was the HDP that deprived the AKP of its majority, polling over 13% of the vote and entering parliament as a political party for the first time.

Opposition figures have voiced concerns about maintaining election security, especially in Turkey's predominantly Kurdish east and south-east.
 
Not calming down.

A crowd has attacked the headquarters of Turkey's pro-Kurdish HDP party, amid rising violence between Turkish forces and the militant Kurdish PKK group.

Pictures from the scene appeared to show the HDP building in the capital, Ankara, on fire.

Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu has appealed for calm.

HDP offices in at least six other Turkish cities were reported to have been attacked and images on social media appeared to show those in the southern resort city of Alanya also on fire.

In Istanbul, pro-government protesters again attacked the offices of the Hurriyet newspaper, smashing windows. An angry crowd had stormed the building on Sunday accusing the newspaper of misquoting President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in a TV interview.

Turkey's pro-Kurdish HDP party offices attacked in Ankara - BBC News
 
The stench of propaganda and disinfo at the moment is immense.

September is often a big month for "pulse" events. Something weird could well be a foot and if you don't like it well...you're soft on ISIS intcha? not as soft as the CIA, Turkey, Saudi et al obviously but that's detail.
 
The stench of propaganda and disinfo at the moment is immense.

September is often a big month for "pulse" events. Something weird could well be a foot and if you don't like it well...you're soft on ISIS intcha? not as soft as the CIA, Turkey, Saudi et al obviously but that's detail.

I think your right . And the sudden ramping up of a Russian presence strikes me as an attempted spoiler or spanner in the works for whatever's coming down the pipeline could be . Definitely something going on more than the usual and I think the Russians have gotten wind of it .
 
Christ CR can you say something meaningful for once? Dwyer appears positively coherent when compared to you.

Let the bourgeois forces of the erdoğanısts and PKK fight it out between them, who, in spite of them are laying the groundwork for class unity and increased ferment in working-class radicalisation.

The question is whether the left and their western cheerleaders will end up being class traitors and supporting the self-flagellating opportunism of the philistine democratic confederalists, or for once will they learn something from the wildcat strike wave in May and seek to apply the lessons?

You know, that dreaded dialectic in action - sacred like the koran (blind rage of every sex obsessed liberal!) Foul!
 
I think your right . And the sudden ramping up of a Russian presence strikes me as an attempted spoiler or spanner in the works for whatever's coming down the pipeline could be . Definitely something going on more than the usual and I think the Russians have gotten wind of it .

Perhaps - though it is also possible to see the Russian presence increasing as evidence that Assad's removal is no longer being sought by the US / the West, which would fit in somewhat with what Putin said at the weekend.
 
No indeed I just saw your post on the Syria thread, still bit mixed messages or is it Cameron expressing his personal preferences?
 
Christ CR can you say something meaningful for once? Dwyer appears positively coherent when compared to you.

Let the bourgeois forces of the erdoğanısts and PKK fight it out between them, who, in spite of them are laying the groundwork for class unity and increased ferment in working-class radicalisation.

The question is whether the left and their western cheerleaders will end up being class traitors and supporting the self-flagellating opportunism of the philistine democratic confederalists, or for once will they learn something from the wildcat strike wave in May and seek to apply the lessons?

You know, that dreaded dialectic in action - sacred like the koran (blind rage of every sex obsessed liberal!) Foul!

I'm pretty sure you missed the opportunity to shout "class" a few more times there . If ever a bearded jihadist with a NATO supplied weapon tells you he's going to chop your head off and sell your family into slavery you should try reminding him of the particular relevance of the class issue at that particular moment .
Because , plainly, actually fighting back against him under the banner of anything other than the correct dialectical position would be an obvious act of bourgeois hypocrisy that would deserve nothing less than the derisive sneers of all self respecting Marxists .

Hope that's coherent enough .
 
I'm pretty sure you missed the opportunity to shout "class" a few more times there . If ever a bearded jihadist with a NATO supplied weapon tells you he's going to chop your head off and sell your family into slavery you should try reminding him of the particular relevance of the class issue at that particular moment .
Because , plainly, actually fighting back against him under the banner of anything other than the correct dialectical position would be an obvious act of bourgeois hypocrisy that would deserve nothing less than the derisive sneers of all self respecting Marxists .

Hope that's coherent enough .

Oh here we go with the moralism. My point was, if you hadn't gathered already (as you're unable to actually respond to sarcasm) that Turkish policy isn't dependent on Erdogan. It's a contradictory beast. Erdogan's a cunt, yes, but it's like the imbecilic antifa who blame everything on fascism and fascists without seeing the actual breakdown of things and why fascism was precipitated in the first place. I'm asking you to say something original and to think for yourself, not propagate the propaganda of others. We can read it for ourselves, thank you very much. you don't even read or speak the language yet you've become the mysterious master analyst of turkish foreign policy.

Beyond paternalistic this.
 
My daughter and her b/f have just come back from there said they saw two big demos on the coach to the airport, said it was s bit scary.
 
A lot of people here, including Turkish friends of mine who are not prone to being dramatic, are worried about the same thing. I've seen very worrying things in the last few days and am afraid for my boyfriend (who is pretty obviously Kurdish) and myself (who isn't, but won't keep my mouth closed if provoked or faced with prejudice).

It was worse in the 1990s far worse in fact - even then it wasn't civil war. HDP buildings being attacked happen in the dead of night by a small group of die hard agents. As soon as AKP secures the MHP vote block, the route to Imrali island can be opened, Abdullah Ocalan will call for guerrilla to leave to the Medya defence area which they will do and Turkish army and police forces will return to a more routine form of patrol and intimidation.
 
Well the other day a group had a banner saying something like "solidarit ywith the kurds, peace" and a mob beat them up, then the original group were all arrested. That was in the middle of Taksim in the middle of the day. :(
 
Well the other day a group had a banner saying something like "solidarit ywith the kurds, peace" and a mob beat them up, then the original group were all arrested. That was in the middle of Taksim in the middle of the day. :(

I thought police arrested them and attacked them. The point stands, in the 1990s whole hotelfuls of suspect 'Kurdish sympathisers' in the west were burnt to death - still not civil war.

Though long, this is a fascinating and detailed alternative to mainstream disinfo.



Fact-free conspiracist s***e, the speaker's own website publishes antisemitic stuff like this

Pink Floyd 'flying pigs' seen with the Star of David

http://21stcenturywire.com/2012/11/...er-agreement-between-hitler-and-the-zionists/
 
Link is here:

Breaking News video: Turkey Hands over six Kurdish YPG Fighters to Al Qaida Terrorist organisation (Al-Nusra) in Syria

One for the "that's fucked up" file, definitely.

A point I wanted to make about the claims of YPG ethnic cleansing. For the past two decades whenever that has taken place in the Balkans, the ME or Africa, the reports have usually followed this pattern, or something like it: "My name is X from the village of Y. On such and such a date, soldiers from militia Z entered my village and took away my neighbour and his sons, whose names are A, B, C, and D. No one has seen them since".

In other words, there are always at least some details which give the story legs - has there been anything similar in the case of the claims made against the YPG?
Well, now there are some details that give the story legs. Looks like there may well be something to the stories, if Amnesty are to be believed:

Syria: US ally’s razing of villages amounts to war crimes | Amnesty International

E2A: Does this need its own thread?
 
Well, now there are some details that give the story legs. Looks like there may well be something to the stories, if Amnesty are to be believed:

Syria: US ally’s razing of villages amounts to war crimes | Amnesty International

I'm going to try and digest the full report later but the YPG side it mentions is:

Redur Xelil, the YPG spokesperson, told Amnesty International that residents had to vacate some areas for their own security, and not necessarily because of any ties to armed groups. He explained that these displacements were carried out to avoid civilian casualties during clashes and to prevent injuries from IEDs that IS had laid in villages. He said: With regret… in war the person that is harmed first and foremost is the civilian. We know it. But there are some situations where there is no other option… The families that are on the frontline… Who is responsible for them if IS attacks? When clashes happen there is shooting and car bombs, airplane shelling; all kinds of weapons are used. The better solution is to move civilians away from the frontlines until the situation improves… There is no other solution militarily… Second there are thousands of IEDs in this area. How can you keep families, and women, and kids amongst the IEDs? They are still there.71
He added that IS was benefiting from the presence of civilians in these areas, and using them to plant car bombs or carry out other attacks on the YPG.


The war is very ugly similar to the Lebanon one, jabhat el nusra, ahrar ash sham and the fsa have all, at various points, tried to wipe out the ypg. Presumed guilt on the basis of family identification is, of course, a grotesque crime.

Members of a displaced family from Tel Diyab village, near Ras al-Ayn -- who are now in southern Turkey -- told Amnesty International that the YPG and Asayish forces told them to leave because of their suspected familial affiliation with non-state armed groups opposed to the Syrian government. The family added that two of their homes were destroyed after they were forced to leave. Amnesty International visited two of the destroyed homes and observed the destruction.
Members of a displaced family from Ras al-Ayn city, now in southern Turkey, told Amnesty International that the YPG confiscated their home and shops after they left the city, fearing reprisals because one family member had fought against the YPG as part of a Free Syrian Army brigade.


Interview from the same commander about ethnic relations

-You live in an area which is not homogeneous from the demographic aspect, how do the Arabs interact with you?

For us, The Kurdish Rojava is a definite geographical area that nothing can conceal the truth about it, even the fifty-year old Arabization policy of the former regime; however, these kinds of policies have had many negative influences.
Nevertheless, at the moment what we have in hand is the presence of many ethnics in the area including Kurdish, Assyrian, Syriac, Arab and Circassian. Ethnic or racial war bears no fruit for us or for the Arabs. We should regard this plurality and difference as an opportunity not as a threat. This solidarity makes it possible to go for mutual trust in the near future.
We want to approach the issue with wisdom and rationality and we try to enliven the inactive space between the Rojava ethnics, which takes time.
We do not have any problems with our Arab brothers, as some Arab youth are now fighting against ISIS besides our warriors and they are martyred in such battles.

-How do the Arabs in the area think about you?
Unfortunately, the Arabs in the area lack a solid structure so one cannot get into dialogues with them. Most of them are influenced by the commands of the tribe chiefs and act accordingly. They usually accompany the main power of the area in different times.

-Even when that power is ISIS?

Unfortunately, yes! At first, most of them were along with the Jabhat al-Nusra; and before that they were with the regime, and now they are cooperating with ISIS.
We have applied a completely different policy, which is the effort for eliminating the ethnic sensitivities. We can live with one another peacefully as brothers and have managed to gain their confidence using legal strategies.
After the arrival of YPG forces at the Tal Hamis and Tal Brak cities that were mostly Arabic Residents, the peace has returned to the city and we do not see the dangers from ISIS, Jabhat al-Nusraand the regime for Arabs anymore. Currently, the local forces have the gained the control of their city. And many people have been martyred for liberating these areas.
Many local people would tell us at the time of the former regime: “We will kick you out of the Arabic lands. We will slaughter you, you do not belong here!” They were just obeying the regime policies and there were no efforts to reviewing their opinions. However, at last, the ones who liberated the Arabs from the inhumane culture yoke of ISIS, were the very Kurds whom the Arabs wanted to slaughter. They lived several years under the strict and inhumane rules of Jabhat al-Nusra and ISIS. Today, many things have changed; the ethnic sensitivities have reduced in the Arab cantons and they are eagerly joining the YPG day by day. We are optimistic about living in a brotherly atmosphere equal to Arab, Assyrian and Chechenian brothers.
 
Some very quick notes (so not to be taken as anything other than that) whilst reading the report - note, this isn't a defence or justification of all of the actions which i don't doubt took place and are probably to be expected in this situation i'm afraid:

1) Report starts by noting the actions they're complaining about were not general but targeted, and targeted at suspected ISIS members/helpers/stay behinds etc

2) The notes that this is legal if "for their own security or for imperative military reasons."

3) Amnesty said they found instances where this was not the case. The YPG said they were. I wonder whose more likely to be the best judge of what is militarily or security required at that time in that place - the amnesty letter writers or the people engaged in a years long fight with ISIS who had been based in these towns in the previous period and who have a long and proven track record of both booby-trapping houses and buildings and leaving stay-behind suicide attackers? And these remember are among the villages where ISIS were helped to kick out the kurds by many locals in the previous years 2013-14.

4) Tiny number of people interviewed

5) Complete co-operation and access given by YPG etc

6) Use of satellite imagery to show claimed YPG destruction - very shoddy. For example, take satellite footage from june 2014 and compares with june 2015 (the date YPG took the village). The comparison should be with may 2015. Otherwise you are ignoring any destruction that ISIS (far more well known for doing this sort of thing) may have carried out in their near control of the village during 99% of the period. The report then goes on to explicitly place the entirety of the destruction on the YPG. Same shoddy work on other examples.

7) Abundant evidence throughout report that ISIS really were still hiding in these villages - see the numerous suicide attacks, car-bombs and surprise attacks mentioned by the reports key witnesses but passed over by the amnesty interviews/report authors. Actually pass over doesn't out it strongly enough since they concluded the YPG didn't face security questions etc

8) Report confuses residents asked/told to leave for periods then returning when village or town was cleared of ISIS and boob-traps with them being expelled full stop - and then it ignores the residents later return i.e it does the same shoddy date cut offs as on the satellite work. And it doesn't bother to incorporate either what happened when the villagers return , taking one of their key examples of suluk, where when residents were allowed to return many were killed by undiscovered booby traps and bombs (it doesn't bother to do the prior work of explaining the bombs were at least partly intended to stop residents returning either).
 
Some very quick notes (so not to be taken as anything other than that) whilst reading the report - note, this isn't a defence or justification of all of the actions which i don't doubt took place and are probably to be expected in this situation i'm afraid:

1) Report starts by noting the actions they're complaining about were not general but targeted, and targeted at suspected ISIS members/helpers/stay behinds etc

2) The notes that this is legal if "for their own security or for imperative military reasons."

3) Amnesty said they found instances where this was not the case. The YPG said they were. I wonder whose more likely to be the best judge of what is militarily or security required at that time in that place - the amnesty letter writers or the people engaged in a years long fight with ISIS who had been based in these towns in the previous period and who have a long and proven track record of both booby-trapping houses and buildings and leaving stay-behind suicide attackers? And these remember are among the villages where ISIS were helped to kick out the kurds by many locals in the previous years 2013-14.

4) Tiny number of people interviewed

5) Complete co-operation and access given by YPG etc

6) Use of satellite imagery to show claimed YPG destruction - very shoddy. For example, take satellite footage from june 2014 and compares with june 2015 (the date YPG took the village). The comparison should be with may 2015. Otherwise you are ignoring any destruction that ISIS (far more well known for doing this sort of thing) may have carried out in their near control of the village during 99% of the period. The report then goes on to explicitly place the entirety of the destruction on the YPG. Same shoddy work on other examples.

7) Abundant evidence throughout report that ISIS really were still hiding in these villages - see the numerous suicide attacks, car-bombs and surprise attacks mentioned by the reports key witnesses but passed over by the amnesty interviews/report authors. Actually pass over doesn't out it strongly enough since they concluded the YPG didn't face security questions etc

8) Report confuses residents asked/told to leave for periods then returning when village or town was cleared of ISIS and boob-traps with them being expelled full stop - and then it ignores the residents later return i.e it does the same shoddy date cut offs as on the satellite work. And it doesn't bother to incorporate either what happened when the villagers return , taking one of their key examples of suluk, where when residents were allowed to return many were killed by undiscovered booby traps and bombs (it doesn't bother to do the prior work of explaining the bombs were at least partly intended to stop residents returning either).

Amnesty was critical of the PKK in the 1990s regurgutating Turkish state propaganda via 'independent testimonies' that PKK slaughtered villages linked to korucus.

Here is a western pro-YPG humanitarian - note a fighter - response:

Open Letter to Amnesty From UK YPG Volunteer

When we entered a village sometimes we had to use people's properties. This involved fortifying them with sandbags and earth (using diggers). This was as a necessity of war and because of the risk of an ISIS attack. There was never a deliberate policy to damage property
 
Be interested to hear more from Macer Gifford. He was in the media a bit when he first came back but not seen much of him since. He came across as quite articulate and understanding of the situation. Anyone had contact or know more of what he's doing now?
 
Be interested to hear more from Macer Gifford. He was in the media a bit when he first came back but not seen much of him since. He came across as quite articulate and understanding of the situation. Anyone had contact or know more of what he's doing now?
He's been all over the shop promoting the YPG etc

Geri
 
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