The grand tory 'civil war' thread

[brogdale]

Hague ignores calls for calm/truce, and goes for IDS big-time...

Many party members will feel let down by such an unhelpful development so close to elections in Scotland, Wales and London. Resigning now is damaging not just to the Prime Minister and Chancellor, but also to every Conservative candidate for a seat in an assembly, or a police commissionership, or for Mayor of London. And these are the people to whom we ex-leaders have a special responsibility, because they tramped the streets for us when we needed them ...

It is a central Conservative argument that pro-business tax changes are not an alternative to welfare spending, but a crucial necessity if we are to pay the vast welfare bills of the future. Depicting the budget as a zero-sum reduction in welfare spending to pay for tax cuts – or juxtaposed with them, as Iain Duncan Smith put it – is simply playing into the hands of a leftwing fallacy that would take us back to Gordon Brown’s policies if put into practice.

​

 

[ViolentPanda]

How much?

A more valid question is "at what odds?".

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm going to lay a bet on Labour winning the next election (under Corbyn).

It's worth a punt. Long odds, but then long odds pay off better!

 

[LeslieB]

Do you literally mean "lay a bet" I.e. bet against or do you mean put a bet on Labour winning? ( confusing terminology I know)

 

[brogdale]

Fatty doesn't disappoint. (impossible not to read the whole thing without hearing that loquacious, claret-lubricated, patrician arrogance). It's all great stuff, but the Alsatian quote is up there with the best!

He... uses a vivid analogy to convey his frustration with the refusal of successive Tory leaders to confront their Eurosceptic opponents:

“If you have an Alsatian sitting in front of you, and it growls at you and bares its teeth, there are two ways of dealing with it. You can pat it on the head, in which case it’ll bite you, or you can kick it really hard in the balls, in which case it’ll run away. Successive Prime Ministers, and it’s not the present Prime Minister alone, have never understood that they have to take these people on.”

Not enough 's

 

[ViolentPanda]

Cameron has, apparently, convened an 'unexpected' meeting with the '22 on Wednesday.

1995 all over again.."back me or sack me"?

I'm pretty sure that Hamface can't convene the '22. All he can do is make a request to the chairman.

 

[DownwardDog]

the tory party are in a massive shambles because you all despise each other as much as you do humanity in general and only a shallow veneer of shared visciousness keeps you off each others throats for five seconds. And lets not talk about who flogs off the family silver eh? Your lot don't look good on that front. Your lot aren't just morally bankrupt- they are proven incompetents. Suck it up.

I'm just pointing out the 22bn number is absolute shit dreamt up for the consumption of the financially innumerate.

We're still definitely going to win the 2020 GE, BTW.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you literally mean "lay a bet" I.e. bet against or do you mean put a bet on Labour winning? ( confusing terminology I know)

The latter.

 

[Gerry1time]

We're still definitely going to win the 2020 GE, BTW.

That's the fascinating subtext of all of this. The change in voting registration deliberately aimed at removing non-Tory voters from the register. The boundary review and the potential gerrymandering in that, and the way Osborne has become so obsessed with treating the treasury like a voter purchasing department. If they don't vote Tory, fuck 'em.

What's fascinating is how hard this will bite the Tory party in the arse in the not too distant future. A lot of what's happening at the moment is Osborne's naked politicking with the national budget finally getting publically rumbled. I wouldn't be surprised if the other elements of the election rigging project start to get noticed soon too.

It will bite the party in the arse because it does no party any good to be in power too long. The unpopular or incorrect decisions start to have to be accounted for, the vision runs out of steam, the cracks in party discipline get ever wider. A lot of what won the Tories a majority at the last election was the fact Labour had been in too long, so the Tories could (semi) reasonably claim that any malaise was still Labour's fault, not theirs, since they hadn't been in power properly since 1997. Stay in power too long again, and the Tories will suffer the same fate. Yet for some reason, they seem determined to engineer things as much as possible to achieve exactly this result.

If I were in charge of Tory election strategy, I'd look to be losing the next election, let Corbyn run the country for a bit, then when it all falls apart, come back in a snap election as the saviours of Labour's mess once more. It'd entrench even further the 'Labour creates mess' narrative that seems to play quite well amongst voters.

So yes, do feel free to win the 2020 election. It'd be great for the long term future of this country if you did.

 

[Pickman's model]

It will bite the party in the arse because it does no party any good to be in power too long.

maybe so. but the institutional revolutionary party (mexico) and japan's liberal democratic party have both had long periods in office which make the tories' 1980-1997 look like a half-time interval.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm pretty sure that Hamface can't convene the '22. All he can do is make a request to the chairman.

yes, being as the '22 are the backbenchers

 

[nino_savatte]

We're still definitely going to win the 2020 GE, BTW.

The only way the Tories can win elections these days is through gerrymandering and other nefarious activities (the scrubbing of the electoral register for example). The 2015 GE was 'won' because your party cheated. I'd argue that your party isn't as popular as either you or your party wonks believe it to be.

 

[Sprocket.]

yes, being as the '22 are the backbenchers

Or the Brady bunch?

 

[brogdale]

Sounds like Tyrie is doing a job on Johnson in the Commons treasury committee...

Tyrie tells Johnson one of his EU claims is 'a figment of your imagination'

Tyrie asks about a claim in Johnson’s book about there being EU rules on the size of coffins.

Johnson says it is a long time since he wrote that. He can remember the rules.

Under pressure, he says he thinks the rule came from some European institution.

Tyrie says Johnson was referring to a convention from the Council of Europe. It had nothing to do with the EU.

• Tyrie tells Johnson another of his EU claims (the coffin rule one) is “a figment of your imagination”.

Johnson says he does not accept that.

Tyrie says people might feel that his claims amount to “an exaggeration to the point of misrepresentation.”

​

 

[Pickman's model]

Or the Brady bunch?

 

[Sprocket.]

View attachment 84963

Tories all

 

[brogdale]

Rumbled.

 

[andysays]

Rumbled.

Free lifetime subscription to Workers Girder for the first one to photoshop Johnson's head on to this picture

 

[brogdale]

Free lifetime subscription to Workers Girder for the first one to photoshop Johnson's head on to this picture

Thing is...most buskers look/sound as though they believe in what they're doing.

 

[andysays]

Thing is...most buskers look/sound as though they believe in what they're doing.

I haven't actually witnessed any of his recent performances, but if they're up to his usual standard, he'd struggle to come away with a hatful of loose change after a one-hour stint on the Underground.

 

[brogdale]

A major Tory donor has called for David Cameron to step down immediately after the EU referendum whatever the result and hold a Conservative leadership contest.

Alexander Temerko, who has given the Tories more than £300,000 since 2012 and supports Boris Johnson, said he believed the London mayor would be the right candidate to reunite the party after a divisive EU referendum campaign.

Piper calling tune.

 

[nino_savatte]

Piper calling tune.

Here's the source for the article.

Boris Johnson is the best hope for the Tories – and for Britain
Boris Johnson’s public support for Brexit was a dramatic moment that changed the whole tone of the referendum debate, shifting it from what was largely a Conservative party issue to a truly national one.

I believe strongly that the UK should remain in the EU, but I still applaud Johnson’s contribution. Unlike Iain Duncan Smith, he has been able to manage his disagreements with the prime minister and the chancellor without causing division. With Osborne now under severe pressure from so many in the party, Johnson is the only leadership candidate who has any hope of restoring unity.
Boris Johnson is the best hope for the Tories – and for Britain | Alexander Temerko

Bozza's a mess; a disaster on two legs.

 

[Sprocket.]

Bozzas a mess; a disaster on two legs.

They are all spoilt brats playing at being grown ups and destroying people's lives in the process.

 

[nino_savatte]

They are all spoilt brats playing at being grown ups and destroying people's lives in the process.

I agree. When I was watching PMQs this week, I kept thinking "they're just kids".

 

[jakethesnake]

I agree. When I was watching PMQs this week, I kept thinking "they're just kids".

University Debating Society wankers the lot of em.

 

[brogdale]

Not sure if (or how) this might fit into the 'civil war' story, but I just had to put this out there...is it possible to think of a more toxic contemporary juxtaposition than Gove, Murdoch and U2. Kinnel.

Justice secretary Michael Gove attended a U2 concert in November with Rupert Murdoch, the chair of News Corp, which owns The Sun and The Times newspapers, according to ministerial hospitality documents published on Thursday.

The news will fuel further speculation Gove was responsible for a leak to The Sun about a private conversation between the Queen and then deputy prime minister Nick Clegg, in which the monarch was said to have expressed “scathing views” of the EU.

 

[brogdale]

University Debating Society wankers the lot of em.

The only debating in their university society was of the porcine 'mas' type.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

The only debating in their university society was of the porcine 'mas' type.

Fuck me! You worked hard to tease a joke out of that, I'll grant you.

 

[brogdale]

Fuck me! You worked hard to tease a joke out of that, I'll grant you.

Hard-working family, me!

 

[DotCommunist]

its the cheering when they announce the terms of the budget that does me. Full throated roars of yay! fuck poor people! in fact, time to fuck median income earners a s well! yaaaaaay!