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Systemic Collapse: The Basics

Which is part of the problem with this system, isn't it? It's the already-rich who are taking advantage.
but it was always going to have to be those with more money who were the early adopters who helped to build the scale of the industry and drive prices down to the point where it became more affordable for the less well off.

The choice really was do it this way, or don't do it at all (without excusing the massive mismanagement of the scheme that's led to excessive profits being made by customers from about July 2011-March 2012).

Thing is though that it really isn't something just for the rich, most of our customers haven't been particularly rich, just people mostly in their late 30s-60s who've got a bit of money saved up for their retirement that's earning sod all interest in the bank and want to do something positive with the money while earning a reasonable long term return on it. For the seriously rich, this is pocket change stuff, and I expect they mostly wouldn't think it merits the hassle for a mere few hundred quid a year return.
 
Does the durability mentioned in the title include the ability to withstand throwing yourself off a cliff in hopeless despair?
 
The 'four templates' of sustainable living that he provides at about the 40 minute mark seem a little weak, tbh. Maybe that's because he didn't devote enough time to discussing them, though.
 
meanwhile, last weekend Solar PV in Germany peaked at supplying almost 50% of the countries electricity requirements after a further 7GWP was installed last year.
future's bright, doom mongers.
It is certainly remarkable what you can build when you have a fully functioning, hydrocarbon powered, global industrial manufacturing system at your disposal (without which, of course, weekend solar in Germany would be peaking at around 0%).

Quite what you perceive to be the relationship between what Germany is building with that system today, and what they will be able to build and maintain without it, is less clear.
 
well, being as most of the manufacturing capacity runs on electricity, and very little of our electricity comes from oil, I'm thinking we've got enough time to ramp our renewable generation capacity up to a point where it's able to sustain both us and the industrial supply chain it relies on to replenish itself.


Other reasons to be cheerful...

HVDC interconnectors have been announced between Norway-Germany, Norway-UK, Iceland-UK

1GW offshore windfarms approved today off the kent coast

Solar PV costs have halved in the last year, and the UK industry has demonstrated the capacity to install around 1.5GW a year once the government stops pissing us around, from a standing start, so we could fairly easily ramp that up by about 1-2GW a year if the sustained demand was there.

anyway, I've not got the time or energy to spare dealing with your negativity right now.
 
well, being as most of the manufacturing capacity runs on electricity
<snip>

What about the extraction and transport of raw materials and distribution of finished products?

When, for example, will we see a solar-powered solar cell factory?

Then there is the small matter of the mining, refining, transport and processing of all the silicon, copper, indium, gallium, selenium, cadmium and tellurium needed to make PV cells. Many of these materials are only found in remote locations and their production is extremely energy-intensive. Ditto for Neodymium, etc. required for wind turbine generators. There's already a shortage of rare-earths because these materials are being used to produce hybrid cars, ffs.
:rolleyes:

The concrete, steel and aluminium required for the structure of wind-farms all require energy intensive production. Then there's all the cabling required to get power ashore and to where its needed. I'll bet those cables are insulated with some petroleum-derived polymer.

We could try looking at agriculture, which these days amounts to the use of land to convert petroleum into food.

I could go on, but that might be too negative...
 
as I say, most of the manufacturing capacity runs on electricity, and there's no actual reason that the rest couldn't if it needed to.

some of the stuff you mention would be the remainder that doesn't, which would be implied fairly clearly by my use of the word 'most' instead of 'all'.

There's probably around 80GWp of solar PV now installed worldwide, with around 30GW expected to be installed this year. At around a 1:3 annual energy payback, that probably puts the industry in total still in a slight negative energy situation, but at some point in the next few years that will change and stay changed as the growth of the industry slows to more sustainable rates. For example if the manufacturing / installation rate stayed at 30GW then next year the existing capacity globally would be generating around 20TWh more than the industry consumed, then 50TWh, 80 TWh, 110TWh etc. But the industry will continue ramping up for a good few years yet, so that once it does get into energy credit the rate at which this will increase year on year will be far bigger than that.

These are starting to become some pretty serious numbers btw.
 
Frequency of Google search results for the term 'power cut'

viz
 
as I say, most of the manufacturing capacity runs on electricity, and there's no actual reason that the rest couldn't if it needed to.

I disagree.
  • Solar is a diffuse, low grade energy source. The industrial manufacturing system and the productive economy requires concentrated, high grade energy sources (you can leave iron ore out in the sun all day and you won't get a gram of steel).
  • Up-conversion (the industrial process of constructing and powering the energy collection, concentration, and conversion subsystems) itself requires and dissipates enormous quantities of high grade energy, removing it from the productive economy.
  • The high grade energy for up-conversion is currently provided by hydrocarbon sources (EROEI of, say, 60). Solar currently offers (using your figures) an EROIE of between 0 and 3 (neglecting its full share of the the global industrial manufacturing system's power demand - actual figure lower/negative)
  • Substituting high grade energy with low grade energy for up-conversion requires additional non-productive capacity for power upgrading, in the scaling ratio of (60/3 = ) 20 i.e. twenty times more non-productive power upgrade infrastructure relative to hydrocarbon based up-conversion, per unit of output.
  • Renewables currently supply 1% of global energy, requiring 7 growth octaves to replace non-renewable sources at current energy demand growth, or 2^7 = 128 fold increase in output (allowing 40 years transition at 1.5%/year energy demand growth). A 128 fold output increase requires 128x20 = 2,560 fold increase in non-productive up-conversion power infrastructure.
  • This number is highly sensitive to the estimate of solar EROIE and quickly approach infinity as EROIE approaches zero. Equally, since solar/wind offer the highest EROIE's, and the actual energy mix will be some less optimal combination, resource demands will be higher than this in practice.
  • Many of the critical components and resources (esp. rare earth elements) are already in critical depletion. Lower grade ore requires higher processing energy (another geometrically scaling diminishing return), further reducing solar EROIE
  • Other critical parts of the manufacturing capacity don't and cannot run on electricity e.g. the global transportation system necessary to convey resources to manufacturing and end-use locations. End use cost is highly sensitive to transportation cost. The most critical part of the manufacturing system is the food supply, critically dependent at the current population level on hydrocarbon.
  • The goal is not to achieve parity in meeting the up-conversion process's high grade energy requirement with low grade energy; it is to do so with sufficient surplus power margin to power a productive global economy - a critical precondition for a global industrial manufacturing system - currently many multiples of the industrial manufacturing subsystem's power demand.
Geometric scaling of inputs and diminishing returns kill you, and is what distinguishes your toy applications (which is all they are at such low fractions of total demand) from meaningful substitutes for the global scale hydrocarbon energy system.

It is why it feels very "doable" for you. "Oh look, it works in the lab. All we have to do its lots and lots and lots of it". Our intuitive processes extrapolate linearly. Most scaling problems are geometric. The real issue is not that we don't recognise it. It is that, even if we do, we don't intuitively grasp how quickly absurd quantities are generated under geometric scaling.

So: if solar up-conversion is a net-negative process (the likely situation when the full energy cost of its necessary industrial manufacturing process is fully accounted for) scaling simply increases the total losses in the system, geometrically. Even assuming that solar up-conversion is currently a net-positive energy process (by no means a safe assumption), the attempt to scale it, and to substitute its current high grade upgrade energy source with low grade energy, will quickly exhaust some critical resource long before we get to any meaningful fraction of the high grade energy demand of the thousands of industrial processes it is the product of.

Note: These are order of magnitude estimates, intended to serve as a basic sizing exercise. By all means quibble about whether it is a five fold or seven fold doubling requirement, but it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the conclusion. At such low EROIEs, the result is highly insensitive to gross uncertainty in input parameters. An order of magnitude improvement in demand reduction and conversion efficiency still requires three orders of magnitude increase in resource requirement.
 
I don't see anything interesting in those stats at all, tbh. There is a general rise as internet use across the globe increases. It's only English-speaking results that are counted, presumably, and clearly there's a huge US bias on those. But the general rise, as indicated by the general level of the line going up, is likely also to be accompanied by other changes, as the new users may be from different demographic groups on average from older users.

There will be stats about actual power cuts across the world. Better to look at those. ;)
 
Falcon
Other critical parts of the manufacturing capacity don't and cannot run on electricity e.g. the global transportation system necessary to convey resources to manufacturing and end-use locations.

WCML_freight_train.jpg
 
Thanks Rover. How appropriate that it looks exactly like a toy train set. And what a shame its termini are Edinburgh and London, neither terribly well regarded sources of the rare earth elements without which renewables don't function, and not Shanghai and London. But thanks for the lovely sentiment.

This is what we had in mind, noting that there are around 5 million container ships in transit at any given time sustaining the global manufacturing system, the largest of which consume around 225 tonnes of bunker fuel per day. I'll let you run the math on the number of solar panels and length of electricity extension cable you'd need to substitute …

35heomt.jpg
 
Hydrogen fuel cells for ships.

Hydrogen produced by sunlight, breezes and raindrops. :D

Hilarious. You don't actually know how fuel cells work, or the source of the hydrogen, do you? It's even in the title of your own citation. This technology reduces the emissions from a hydrocarbon fuel source. It is not a fuel source.
 
Anything else before you get back to tending your rabbits?

The problem with your Malthusian economics is that technology drives a great big hole straight through it.
 
Over time, as container ship transport becomes more expensive, the long-distance transport of goods will become less of the norm. That's a very good thing - far too much is transported long distances at the moment when locally sourced stuff is available. The price of many goods will go up, but we survived in the past before cheap manufacturing in East Asia. We can survive again. Many people will find that they're not as rich as they were when it comes to buying stuff, but again, that's probably not such a bad thing. We don't half consume a load of old rubbish half the time. Crucially, opportunities for capitalist investment will disappear. Here there will be a real battleground - who will replace this investment and how? There will be a genuine opportunity to direct investment towards a different kind of growth, one that measures improvements in quality of life in a far more nuanced way than current measures.
 
The problem with your Malthusian economics is that technology drives a great big hole straight through it.
… an argument which your less than thorough appreciation of where the the stuff that technology requires comes from and how it gets moved around, and in what quantities, and your apparent inability to read the inch high titles labelling your own evidence, has rather prevented you from making convincingly.
 
But Falcon, all your arguments are based on the assumption that things will be done in the same way in the future as they are done now. As oil runs out, things will have to be done differently. The greater the shortage in oil, the greater the incentive to find alternatives.

This is not to say that we're not headed for problems. Clearly we are. But the assumption that no solutions will be found to those problems is a silly one.
 
But Falcon, all your arguments are based on the assumption that things will be done in the same way in the future as they are done now. As oil runs out, things will have to be done differently. The greater the shortage in oil, the greater the incentive to find alternatives. This is not to say that we're not headed for problems. Clearly we are. But the assumption that no solutions will be found to those problems is a silly one.

I understand your point, and agree with it to some extent. But the magnitude of the incentive is not, of itself, a guide to the likelihood of success - ask anyone on a death bed. There are some things in life which are predicaments i.e. without solutions, rather than problems - a temporary extravagant surplus of energy has rather insulated us from that fact, which is about to reassert itself.

I am not suggesting that no solutions are discoverable. But we are limited both in the time we have available, and the resources we have available, to effect a solution. The nature of the failure mechanism in complex systems (of which the contemporary global political economy is an example) is that the descent to less complex states is discontinuous and rapid after onset commences - a formal way of saying that collapse is rapid, once it begins. All the conditions are in place. We are now functioning for as long as some random excursion of a critical variable e.g. typing "trillion" rather than "billion" into a trading computer (again) doesn't trigger phase change. And we have never begun a primary energy transition at such an advanced state of depletion of the dominant energy source. In practical terms we now have no marginal surplus above that quantity of energy necessary to sustain the complexity of the existing system with which to construct an alternative energy system. We are changing the engines out in flight, so to speak.

So it becomes orders of magnitude more difficult, the later we leave it.

In my view, the whole hi-tek solar/smart grid thing is a hallucination and fatal misdirection, in that context. We don't have the time for it, we don't have the energy for it, we don't have the resources for it and, even if we did, it makes the same assumption you accuse me of i.e. that there will be a thing called "the global industrial manufacturing system" (in point of fact they don't assume it, most of them aren't even aware of it in the first place).

In my view, we would be rather better served accepting that the best course of action lies in radical demand destruction and steady state economics, and set about reorganising society on that basis with as much energy as our political system will allow. The deleterious consequence of pollyanna solar optimists is the complacence it engenders in society at large that a grown up is going to allow the party of cheap flights to Marbella, and Chelsea tractors, to go on.

Rover's comical doltishness would be amusing if it wasn't, in fact, a reasonable proxy for current levels of ignorance and complacency. I can't see how thrilling over how quickly renewables has grown from 0.75% to 1% of global supply in the last decade improves that...
 
… an argument which your less than thorough appreciation of where the the stuff that technology requires comes from and how it gets moved around, and in what quantities, and your apparent inability to read the inch high titles labelling your own evidence, has rather prevented you from making convincingly.

Your right, in my haste I didn't read that article properly.

But a hydrogen powered ship is perfectly feasible with present technology.

Hydrogen can be produced from water with electricity.
 
Hydrogen can be produced from water with electricity.

Yes of course it can. And the quantity of energy you get from burning the hydrogen is significantly less than the quantity of energy you need to make the electricity. The hydrogen is a lossy energy carrier, not an energy source.

Meanwhile, you've worked out the surface area of solar panel you'd need to attach to your boat to generate the quantity of energy you'd require to liberate hydrogen from water to power it, rather than from methanol, to replace 225 tonnes/day of bunker fuel, noting it would be more efficient to drive electric motors directly? (Hint: too big)
 
...
The problem with your Malthusian economics is that technology drives a great big hole straight through it.
The only problem with Malthusian economics was the discovery of fossil fuels. The energy they provided and the technology they enabled created a progress bubble and the illusion that we had escaped the Malthusian trap.
 
In my view, the whole hi-tek solar/smart grid thing is a hallucination and fatal misdirection, in that context. We don't have the time for it, we don't have the energy for it, we don't have the resources for it and, even if we did, it makes the same assumption you accuse me of i.e. that there will be a thing called "the global industrial manufacturing system" (in point of fact they don't assume it, most of them aren't even aware of it in the first place).
.
Ah, now on this point, I agree with you. I think it is very likely that the global manufacturing systems will have to be radically rethought in coming decades, and that this will lead to certain kinds of things becoming more expensive. But as I said before, that's not such a bad thing. We will have to become used to consuming far more locally sourced things than we do now, make stuff last, etc.

More effort may need to be directed towards the generation of energy, maintenance of infrastructure and production of basics than is now the case, meaning that there may not be the quantity of non-essentials produced that there is now. That said, the nature of the availability of things changes. As an example, e-publishing gives the opportunity to have access to far more books than before using less energy. I'd anticipate quite a bit more of this kind of thing - homes of the future will contain fewer physical 'things' but a great deal of digitally stored 'things'. Indeed, that's already happening.
 
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