bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
How about I don't. I did this conversation once. The party did everything right, go back and check if it matters to you and the boss.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
Its interesting how much of the DM commenters think the SWp and all left groups are unemployed scroungers, the SWP members usually have very good well paid jobs: teachers, nurses/health workers, doctors, higher level public sector workers, etc, and fwik most work very hard indeed
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
So you've based your attack on butchers point:
on the basis of one example which you were you were there for, of a new entrant to the party rapist.
There's little doubt that if a newish young male entrant to the SWP was to have behaved in a sexist or inappropriate manner to any to of the CC members they would be heavily disciplined be subject to a DC without any friends on board, not be allowed to be anywhere near where the CC member was working or attending talks.
So the SWP acting impeccably in some situations, does not tackle the wider problem of the power concentrations and imbalances within the party that do lead to cases like W, X, Sheffield full-timer's victim and another London victim.
I'm struggling with your general point now bolshie after the March conference, what should the remaining SWP do, and what should the SWP leadership do?
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
What fucking 9 cases. Nobody acknowledges that number no matter how many times the boss repeats it.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Linda Rogers Edinburgh SWP, Scottish Women's Aid, wrote that she has heard this from supporters of the CC, presumably pro-DC nonfaction people at the original January conference:
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
That's where the number was first mentioned, but I don't think it's ever been confirmed since, either by the SWP or by oppositionists. In the original article, it appears as a figure raised by a loyalist or loyalists in argument rather than as a statement of fact.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Six seem to have been identified by various people, so nine seems a distinctly plausible number
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Well they're hardly going to re-confirm it now, are they?
They genuinely thought it was a good argument that would convince people, otherwise they wouldn't have said it in the first place!!
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Why are loyalists mentioning that number in argument if it's got no basis in reality?
It gets responded to in pre-special conference factionalising, as they would expect.
And then it is picked up a national newspaper (obviously without Linda Rodgers' input), so it begins to get treated as based on fact given that it asks:
The Mail obviously waited until after Rodgers had resigned so it could counterpose SWP versus a non-member.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Who knows? If you look at the article, the source of the claim is some unknown loyalist, not the writer herself. And we don't know if that loyalist was someone likely to have had direct knowledge or if the source was someone further along the line.
I am not saying that the number is implausible, just that everyone should be careful of simply assuming that it's accurate in the absence of any confirmation or more direct claim of knowledge. It's odd, for instance, that the number hasn't appeared in any other oppositionist documents.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
I agree entirely no one is simply assuming. The number itself is fairly meaningless because the timescale is totally unspecified, so the loyalist hasn't really given anything concrete. Instead it was an attempt to downplay the Delta botching on a clumsy basis, which itself suggests something about the loyalist argument - not focused on their poor handling but on 9 other cases assumed to be handled in an unblemished fashion with 9 rapists correctly neutralised etc (of course this is all in camera, no real reports are published).
You could make a very strong case against any left party/grouping or the anarchist movement for exactly similar faults - details of past cases are not published.
It doesn't necessarily reflect badly upon the SWP, other cross sections of society will probably have more instances and far fewer reportings I'd have thought.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
They have fixed (after some prompting from yours truely!) the link on the internet marxist archive to a 1980 ISJ review of Beyond the Fragments: http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/isj2/1980/no2-009/goodwin.html
Although the ISN folk would like to believe they have nothing to do with earlier debates between soc fems and the IS what is striking is how Pete Goodwin's arguments against Rowbotham et al could have been written last week to answer the ISN anti-Leninist turn. Even on questions of style there is a synergy beyween the BtF authors and the latest exiles. One of the latter's big themes is how we need a dialogue with the modern feminist movement and not to look for ready made answers in the sacred texts. And Goodwin says of BtF : " ‘They do not offer any “answers”,’ the blurb on the back proudly announces, ‘indeed their distinct concerns and emphases would make that impossible ...’ (Note, by the way, how the word ‘answers’ appears in inverted commas, as if the concept itself was a figment of the deranged Leninist imagination)"
He goes on to say how after reading certain passages on the dangers of Leninism "The reader is supposed to shudder with visions of machismo and misanthropy." Is there any criticism of leninist parties that isn't a rehash of earlier arguments?
And this warning applies too, with suitable name changes. "Far more likely is that the assault Beyond the Fragments wages on the hard faced Leninist politics with our ‘obsession’ with workplace struggle will simply be used as a ‘theoretical’ prop for dropping one rung further out of the struggle and trying to cultivate one’s own lifestyle. And if the need for a national political alternative is felt then Tony Benn is ready smiling in the wings to satisfy it. He’s quite willing to make the overtures. Remember Peter Hain’s remarks about ‘the seminal work of socialist theory’ at the Great Debate. Remember his indulgence from the chair." There's a reason Owen Jones and Laura Penny are courting SEYMOUR!
Although the ISN folk would like to believe they have nothing to do with earlier debates between soc fems and the IS what is striking is how Pete Goodwin's arguments against Rowbotham et al could have been written last week to answer the ISN anti-Leninist turn. Even on questions of style there is a synergy beyween the BtF authors and the latest exiles. One of the latter's big themes is how we need a dialogue with the modern feminist movement and not to look for ready made answers in the sacred texts. And Goodwin says of BtF : " ‘They do not offer any “answers”,’ the blurb on the back proudly announces, ‘indeed their distinct concerns and emphases would make that impossible ...’ (Note, by the way, how the word ‘answers’ appears in inverted commas, as if the concept itself was a figment of the deranged Leninist imagination)"
He goes on to say how after reading certain passages on the dangers of Leninism "The reader is supposed to shudder with visions of machismo and misanthropy." Is there any criticism of leninist parties that isn't a rehash of earlier arguments?
And this warning applies too, with suitable name changes. "Far more likely is that the assault Beyond the Fragments wages on the hard faced Leninist politics with our ‘obsession’ with workplace struggle will simply be used as a ‘theoretical’ prop for dropping one rung further out of the struggle and trying to cultivate one’s own lifestyle. And if the need for a national political alternative is felt then Tony Benn is ready smiling in the wings to satisfy it. He’s quite willing to make the overtures. Remember Peter Hain’s remarks about ‘the seminal work of socialist theory’ at the Great Debate. Remember his indulgence from the chair." There's a reason Owen Jones and Laura Penny are courting SEYMOUR!
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
That's right, if it wasn't for those pesky feminists and their cursed book 33 years ago, nobody would bat an eye about silly little girls crying rape.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
John Molynuex takes a swipe at Owen Jones, left reformists and centrist vacilators in his latest blog entry. Namechecks Seymour and his excitement about Syriza.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Firstly, you're talking about the wrong case entirely, i'm talking about the third case mentioned in the Mail yesterday - and sihhi has answered. Secondly, yesterday i said that the 9 cases claims may well be "total bollocks", i wasn't repeating it as fact as you say. Thirdly, from your response to your misreadings of a handful of short posts can we take it that you would support the circulation of info about expelled rapists along the lines sihhi outlined in cases other than the one you thought I was talking about as those 'special conditions' would not exist? Or is this the line a flat out no circulation of info in any cases?
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Where were her arguments against going to the police? I missed them.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
This mess would still be a mess of course. But the ISN comrades are kidding themselves if they think this path hasn't been thread before.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I am getting feed up of people (not you) talking as if the crises in the SWP must have some deeper political cause. I have a mate (and he is still a mate) in the SWP and before the conference he kept going on about wanting to know what the 'real' politics were. Now I don't doubt there are a number of various political disagreements being played out here, but surely how the SWP handles rape allegations is a serious political issue in itself? It is not some petty internal squabble.
I think it's less likely that someone will join because they've been around the party without being in some agreement with the politics than if they join because someone has asked them to on the basis that they've signed a petition.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Apologies, realise now you were talking a different case.
So what are we saying here. That left orgs should share info on proven rapists/abusers with each other or more widely? By printing their names in the papers or a discreet letter to each other? Not being snide just trying to understand what you are suggesting practically.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of a revolutionary leadership to be able to come up with some way of passing info onto other potentially vulnerable groups - how about the sec of the disputes committee contacts the national sec of other groups on the phone and outlines what they uncovered? Of course, where this is going is for you to say this will a) threaten the confidentiality of the victim and b) place the rapist in danger of extra-legal (it's bad in this case remember) actions. So effectively making the circulation of info impossible even with the best of wills but without you having to say that you actually oppose it- i'm sure some would oppose it because of the damage and inquiry it would bring to the parties door.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
pathetic whining of an isolated dogmatist (and de facto rape apologist) in a risible sect - treating the Communist International as though it were a model to be repeated, when in actual fact it's interventions helped to fuck up the development of the left across Europe.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
You're right, it's not. And it has to be sorted. I really wish it was possible to talk about it in isolation and give it the sensitive response it deserves. But the people leaving are themselves raising other issues, have been since the beginning and those issues are important too.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
A deep and well thought out insight
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
What you're suggesting doesn't sound mad at all. The confidentiality of the victim is something worth considering no? But I can see that's got to be balanced against the possibility of other people being attacked. Surely that comes down to the nature of the offence, whether it was part of a pattern of behaviour etc no? Can't say I'd lose much sleep about the safety of the rapist. Damage to the party doesn't come into it, stuff that consideration. So yeah what you suggest ought to be possible and in certain extreme cases I'd be surprised if informal contacts like that haven't happened in the past.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
21 lenins.
1,109 at Forest Green for Mansfield's visit yesterday.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
What on earth makes you think this has anything to say to current debates. It's basic thrust is
ie. it's worldview is based on an old model of organising in heavy industry which was already on its way when it was written. Only yer man and his comrades hadn't woken up to that yet. Good luck finding your way back to the steel picket lines....
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
But obviously the labour party way of doing things yet has life.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Says the isolated centrist (and de facto war apologist) in the international that sent its members to war with each other!
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