Sheridan perjury trial opens on Monday

[Knotted]

not yesterdays people to me at all. arguing about this on a messageboard achieves nothing.

Well, I think you're wrong about that. We can learn from our mistakes. We can remind ourselves of our basic values.

I know what you are really trying to say, and that's that we should be diplomatic about it all for the sake of rebuilding the left in Scotland. But I'm not in Scotland and I'm no good at diplomacy anyway. The SSP shattered not because of TS, but because it took it's success for granted. It got far too comfortable, far too repectable amongst bourgeois nationalists. It's no good rebuilding the SSP mark 2 and waiting for that to collapse. A solididly based working class party will not collapse because of one sex scandal involving one leading member. It's ludicrous. If Solidarity members haven't learnt the lesson, it's no good rebuilding with them. It's important to get your principles right.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Its no good rebuilding the SSP mark 2 and waiting for that to collapse. A solididly based working class party will not collapse because of one sex scandal involving one leading member.

Who says we;ve collapsed. Biding our time more like. We have a first class yoof network, a fantastic paper and a brilliant womens section. We;ve been in worse shape - (we've been in worse shape when we had 6 MSPs), we have a good foundation and hell thatch is nearly dead.

Things have been worse.

 

[Fedayn]

Maybe so of some - but looking at what is happening back in the real world today who gives a fuck about this farce?

Perhaps let the leadership of the CWI up here know that then? Always ready with their 'support flooding in for Tommy' quotes, which in reality meant leading CWIers in Britain and a few beyond telling Tommy to stick it to 'em. This farce is the logical conclusion to the idiocy TS started, aided, abetted and cheered from the sidelines by the CWI up here and elsewhere.

 

[Fedayn]

So...if I remember correctly...and I do....some of you lot were extolling the wonderful virtues of Ms Trolle during the last case about what an honest, decent and upstanding person she was.....anyone care to....hmmm....clarify that?

Not been watching this car crash the past few days, what was it she said that irked you so? Ironic by the way, given the biggest liar is in the dock.

 

[Fedayn]

Foe a bunch of ugly cunts they seem to have been shagging each other more than fighting for the socialist republic. SSP/Solidarity full of midnights, brussels and assorted scumbags.

And yet you were more than happy to be an SSP parliamentary candidate were you not? Indeed a candidate in a fairly high profile by-election?!

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Who says we;ve collapsed.

Anyone who has paid the slightest attention to your near-moribund rump organisation.

Of course, the other half of the split is just as fucked.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Who says we;ve collapsed. Biding our time more like.

 

[DexterTCN]

Not been watching this car crash the past few days, what was it she said that irked you so? Ironic by the way, given the biggest liar is in the dock.

The way she talked about fucking Sheridan in his bed, having 3-somes with him, fucking others, going to the swingers bar and fucking people there, going away and fucking them elsewhere...whilst married (,divorced now, obviously).

I've never made any moral judgement on her and I still am not, but others have held her up as a beacon of virtue and saying that her honour is above that of others.

Makes me scum

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Anyone who has paid the slightest attention to your near-moribund rump organisation.

Of course, the other half of the split is just as fucked.

Depend what measures you use. Electorially, yes you're right. Back in the real world, our anti-fash work has seen the SDL and the BNP kicked off the streets every time they've showed their mugs; we have held v. sucessful demos against the drug laws, opposed Trump in Aberdeen last weekend and are gearing up for the anti-cuts work that is likely to dominate the political agenda for the next few years.

Once this whole horrible carcrash of a mess is over, and we've patched up all the people who have been dragged through court and had their lives turned upside down through Sheridan and his stupidity, all the happycats can collectively pounce

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Depend what measures you use. Electorially, yes you're right. Back in the real world, our anti-fash work has seen the SDL and the BNP kicked off the streets every time they've showed their mugs; we have held v. sucessful demos against the drug laws, opposed Trump in Aberdeen last weekend and are gearing up for the anti-cuts work that is likely to dominate the political agenda for the next few years.

Once this whole horrible carcrash of a mess is over, and we've patched up all the people who have been dragged through court and had their lives turned upside down through Sheridan and his stupidity, all the happycats can collectively pounce

Don't be so stupid. The SSP has been reduced to an embittered and tiny sect.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Don't be so stupid. The SSP has been reduced to an embittered and tiny sect.

Have they - news to me.

Raphie de Santos, our economics spokesbod has just brought out a
major new collaboration on the recession.

Our paper Scottish Socialist Voice is still going strong with special issues created for freshers week and the budget. While we also publish two journals Frontline and "Emancipation and Liberation" (produced by one of our platforms).

The SSY paper is relaunched, invigorated and quite frankly brilliant while their blog goes from strength to strength.

We're nowhere near as big as we were in the early 2000s that much is true, but then we dont have the SWP nipping our heids, we've got rid of ba'heid and our finances are in a much healthier state than they have been since the SSP was set up and we have built up considerable links with other socialists internationally, including Basque activists and have hosted talks by Farooq Tariq of the Pakistan Labour party and Hugo Blanco - an indigenous rights activist from Peru, as well as sending international delegations to Cuba.

There is bitterness - that much is true - how can there not be when we watch our comrades getting dragged through the courts day after day, but its really not our main focus, far from - most of the SSP just want the whole thing over as quickly as possible.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Have they - news to me.

Raphie de Santos, our economics spokesbod has just brought out a
major new collaboration on the recession.

Our paper Scottish Socialist Voice is still going strong with special issues created for freshers week and the budget. While we also publish two journals Frontline and "Emancipation and Liberation" (produced by one of our platforms).

The SSY paper is relaunched, invigorated and quite frankly brilliant while their blog goes from strength to strength.

We're nowhere near as big as we were in the early 2000s that much is true, but then we dont have the SWP nipping our heids, we've got rid of ba'heid and our finances are in a much healthier state than they have been since the SSP was set up and we have built up considerable links with other socialists internationally, including Basque activists and have hosted talks by Farooq Tariq of the Pakistan Labour party and Hugo Blanco - an indigenous rights activist from Peru, as well as sending international delegations to Cuba.

There is bitterness - that much is true - how can there not be when we watch our comrades getting dragged through the courts day after day, but its really not our main focus, far from - most of the SSP just want the whole thing over as quickly as possible.

Jesus fucking Christ. You produce a paper and a magazine? And that distinguishes you from a tiny and embittered sect how exactly? You have international links? Just like every other grouplet, although you have less of them than most. You have a blog? You don't even have to be a grouplet for that.

Here are the facts: The SSP has lost all of its electoral support, almost all of its paper membership and a huge majority of its active membership. It no longer has any sway in working class communities and it has no influence of note in the trade union movement. It's a doomed organisation - one that will be stubborn enough to keep a slowly dwindling residual organisation going for some years to come, but one which has zero prospects of any kind of comeback.

As for watching your members "dragged through the courts", three of your leaders have given evidence that they went to the cops of their own volition, presented them with what they claimed was evidence of perjury and demanded an investigation of Sheridan. You don't get to do that and also claim to be in Court involuntarily.

 

[Knotted]

Have they - news to me.

Raphie de Santos, our economics spokesbod has just brought out a
major new collaboration on the recession.

Our paper Scottish Socialist Voice is still going strong with special issues created for freshers week and the budget. While we also publish two journals Frontline and "Emancipation and Liberation" (produced by one of our platforms).

The SSY paper is relaunched, invigorated and quite frankly brilliant while their blog goes from strength to strength.

We're nowhere near as big as we were in the early 2000s that much is true, but then we dont have the SWP nipping our heids, we've got rid of ba'heid and our finances are in a much healthier state than they have been since the SSP was set up and we have built up considerable links with other socialists internationally, including Basque activists and have hosted talks by Farooq Tariq of the Pakistan Labour party and Hugo Blanco - an indigenous rights activist from Peru, as well as sending international delegations to Cuba.

There is bitterness - that much is true - how can there not be when we watch our comrades getting dragged through the courts day after day, but its really not our main focus, far from - most of the SSP just want the whole thing over as quickly as possible.

I remember the days when the SSP used to laugh at the SWP and the "Brit left" for saying things like the above. The truth is that the SSP lost its solid base in working class communities and this happened before Sheridan's shenanigans. Sheridan and Solidarity are an irrelavance and the SSP will be an irrelavance as well if it judges it's success in terms of paper sales, international connections, high profile campaigns and its war chest. The only way for the left to succeed is building a strong grass roots organisation from the bottom up. In my opinion, this was the lesson of the SSP's original success and it's collapse.

 

[DexterTCN]

Oh...and she gave her home address in Denmark (or wherever) to a policeman here so he could go and fuck her as well. She can fuck who she likes as far as I'm concerned but there were some here who were holding her up as a paragon of virtue. I've not seen any paragons of virtue on the stand yet.

They'll never recover from this.

 

[Knotted]

Are you still here?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

I remember the days when the SSP used to laugh at the SWP and the "Brit left" for saying things like the above. The truth is that the SSP lost its solid base in working class communities and this happened before Sheridan's shenanigans. Sheridan and Solidarity are an irrelavance and the SSP will be an irrelavance as well if it judges it's success in terms of paper sales, international connections, high profile campaigns and its war chest. The only way for the left to succeed is building a strong grass roots organisation from the bottom up. In my opinion, this was the lesson of the SSP's original success and it's collapse.

Yes and no. There were problems with SSP prior to the Sheridan disaster - we had become overly focused on electoral sucess and once we achieved that, on parliamentary activities.

We got into a state where the party was sustaining our parliamentary work at the expense of our street work and all our resources were being diverted. That was partly through nievity and partly through being overwhelmed with our sudden sucess. Its a mistake that we wont repeat - mainly it has to be said as we;re unlikely to get the chance to repeat it in the near future - although by 2015, I would expect us to be in a much stronger position to contest the Scottish Elections.

In terms of papers and journals, you are right to some extent that paper sales arent the be all and end all - and certainly our voice sales have taken an enormous hit, but if you are attempting to compare the Socialist Worker with Leftfield then you are on a bit of a hiding to nothing.

In terms of grassroots work, I think we have lost the arrogence that we had with uniting all the main socialist factions within Scotland in one organisation, realising that some of the best activists dont want to be a member of a party and some activists with whom we have a lot of similar aims dont identify as socialists - which has lead us into new ways of working with community groups, environmental groups, anarchist groups and womens groups.

We also realised that some who identify as socialists simply dont share the values and principles of the majority of the SSP - that honesty, integrity, comradeship and respect for womens rights, some of them wanted equality but only on their terms - so having people's sex lives displayed all over the tabloids was not ok if it was their dear leader - worth splitting the party over, but perfectly OK for the rest of the party.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Oh...and she gave her home address in Denmark (or wherever) to a policeman here so he could go and fuck her as well. She can fuck who she likes as far as I'm concerned but there were some here who were holding her up as a paragon of virtue. I've not seen any paragons of virtue on the stand yet.

That is a very unpleasant thing to say about someone you presumably don't know. Is there some new kind of socialist virtue developed by academic and trotskyite theorists we should know about? Or are you just an embittered misogynist? This young woman seem like an excellent sort to me with a healthy and uncomplicated set of attitudes. And I like what she's done with her hair.

 

[Knotted]

I like what you say there, qwerty. I hope it translates into good work.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Don't be so stupid. The SSP has been reduced to an embittered and tiny sect.

I personally don't agree with the SSP, or what is left of them, but I see no need to be so grumpy. They have a legitimate place in Scottish political life and there is no reason to wish them anything but the best.

Except in elections, obviously.

 

[Knotted]

but there were some here who were holding her up as a paragon of virtue.

I think I read all of the relevant threads at the time (although I refrained from commenting) and I don't remember anybody doing this. Not only that it's an improbable claim. Are you sure you are not making this up so as to excuse your ghoulish obsession with this woman's sex life.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I personally don't agree with the SSP, or what is left of them, but I see no need to be so grumpy. They have a legitimate place in Scottish political life and there is no reason to wish them anything but the best.

Except in elections, obviously.

Good for you QWERTY, you have the respect of this New Labourite.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Good for you QWERTY, you have the respect of this New Labourite.

And I am sure that she or he will be suitably appreciative and nonsectarian, and will eschew the bitterness and rancour that you have displayed.

 

[DexterTCN]

That is a very unpleasant thing to say about someone you presumably don't know. Is there some new kind of socialist virtue developed by academic and trotskyite theorists we should know about? Or are you just an embittered misogynist? This young woman seem like an excellent sort to me with a healthy and uncomplicated set of attitudes. And I like what she's done with her hair.

If you read what I said, I care nought about her sex life. I said nothing about her at all, in fact and made no judgement about her or her sex life.

I said that others here were making a big thing of it during the first trial. I merely point out that she is as bad as anyone else in this laughable episode.

I think I read all of the relevant threads at the time (although I refrained from commenting) and I don't remember anybody doing this. Not only that it's an improbable claim. Are you sure you are not making this up so as to excuse your ghoulish obsession with this woman's sex life.

So first I'm scum and now I'm a pervert and a ghoul. Are you 15 years old? Do you think that your shock-value posts have any effect on me other than thinking less of you each time you post?

I've no idea who you are, never talked to you. Unless you have something worth discussing, you'll agree it's staying that way.

 

[Knotted]

So first I'm scum and now I'm a pervert and a ghoul. Are you 15 years old? Do you think that your shock-value posts have any effect on me other than thinking less of you each time you post?

I've no idea who you are, never talked to you. Unless you have something worth discussing, you'll agree it's staying that way.

I don't expect to have any effect on you, but it's worth highlighting your revoluting posts just in case others miss it.

 

[Knotted]

For the record I don't think you have a perverted interest in Katrine Trolle's sex life. I suspect it's more a case of envy.

 

[Fullyplumped]

DexterTCN - If I and others have wrongly concluded from your recent comments that you are an outrageous misogynist who thinks he should be able to dictate how women ought to behave towards men, whether senior politicians or police officers, and you say we were wrong, then I am happy to accept your denial and I for one apologise.

Though if you reflect on your remarks you might see why we came to that conclusion.

 

[DexterTCN]

You jump in with your boots on, obviously having neither read my posts correctly nor considered them...accuse me of being an embittered woman hater...and ask me to consider my remarks.

Although the sheridan/murdoch stuff is always if interest to me...urban very rarely gives any quality discussion on the subjects.

 

[Geri]

I said nothing about her at all, in fact and made no judgement about her or her sex life.

er...

Oh...and she gave her home address in Denmark (or wherever) to a policeman here so he could go and fuck her as well.

 

[ymu]

If you read what I said, I care nought about her sex life. I said nothing about her at all, in fact and made no judgement about her or her sex life.

I said that others here were making a big thing of it during the first trial. I merely point out that she is as bad as anyone else in this laughable episode.

What's she done wrong? I'm no aficionado of this case, but as far as I can tell she has:

- had an active sex life

- given evidence under oath in court when subpoenaed as a witness

Which of those things are "as bad as everyone else"? Are you saying she committed perjury? Or is promiscuity a crime now? For men as well as women, or just women?

 

[DexterTCN]

Well ladies...like I said, I don't care about her sex life, there's no judgement or sly insinuation in my posts.

Trolle was held up to be better than Sheridan in the original case a few years ago with some saying it was disgraceful for him to drag her through it....a decent married woman. The allegation being that he is morally worse than her.

This current case, however, is all about sex, back-stabbing and lying. And Trolle, it is plain now, was doing a lot it as well. They all were.

Any time she's brought up though... I'm scum, I'm perverted. A misogynist, embittered.

Looks like it's more of the same from you.