November 9th 1938 Kristallnacht
- Thread starter Fedayn
- Start date
I could have posted that before the tosser got banned.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Alright for some.
What does the vegan punk do for adequate protein?
(on second thoughts, don't answer that)
Yes. Fridgemagnet is a fabulous moderator as a rule, but imo he messed up badly this time. Whatever you think of his politics, Rachamin was the most interesting poster on these boards, which will be significantly less enjoyable for his absence. I hope that, as has happened in previous such cases, this ban will be reversed at a later date.
I haven't read all of Rachamin's comments on fascism, but the comment of his that you quote (which I presume was the trigger for his banning) was absolutely *true.* I find this a mystifying decision. It is not often that one has the chance to hear someone like Rachamin express his views, and one of the best things about these boards is that it has been possible to do so here.
I urge you to reconsider.
The trouble about this stirring eulogy is that Dwyer is a well known troll and self-confessed shit-stirrer.
A person who accepted his words at face value could end up looking something of a mug
And just to put this lie to rest once and for all: I believe everything I write on these boards. The many posters who are familiar with me irl know this to be true.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I have to agree. Fascism pre-Hitler wasn't inherently racist. Indeed a significant number of early Italian fascists were Jewish.
Come on Bernie, how can there be "proof" that the Stern Gang were fascists or terrorists? Obviously that is a matter of opinion. Furthermore it would be a minority opinion among Israelis. If Rachamin is a fascist, then so are a significant proportion of his countrymen. The more I read about this decision, the more absurd it appears.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's perfectly possible for original fascism to be racist and also to contain jewish members (a few hundred at that, not a massive amount).
Which it was, and which it did.
Correctamundo. I live in the USA, where Rachamin's views are very much part of acceptable political discourse (as of course they are in Israel). I know that Brits are not used to hearing such views expressed in Rachamin's forceful and intelligent manner, and I believe this to be the reason for FMs over-reaction in this case.
And fwiw I disagree with virtually all of Rachamin's political views.
And you should be ashamed of yourself too, applauding this decision. You're more than capable of arguing with Rachamin on his own terms, why deprive yourself (and the rest of us) of the pleasure?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Political banning or conduct banning or a combination of them both? Only fridgemagnet can answer that. I quite like your D.O.S description, which lends weight to the primarily 'conduct banning' theory - since I doubt that the BNP posters are going to be banned any time soon.
I used to be 'no platform' but I've changed my opinion on that somewhat. I think I need to know what the views are, and how else am I going to find out?
And I agree with nino that uber-nationalism (that some might describe as fascism) at some point inevitably manifests as racism.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
IMO, Primo Levi wasn't as hard as he probably should have been on his fellow Italians for what happened to him. The cod-psychologist in me would surmise that this was a psychological strategy to enable him to continue living in Italy.
But Levi's opinion on this was clear. Italian fascism was not concerned with race or any theories of racial superiority before Hitler. Was he wrong?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes he was. For real life proof we only need look at the apartheid introduced into Ethipia and the severe penalties imposed on race mixers.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's not so different from the situation in Central Africa at the time, though.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's true, and i don't think you'd deny that was also in large part based on racism (or the use of racism).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Absolutely. But that puts Italian fascism on a par with British imperialism. That's all I'm saying.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Well, there's documentary proof that Lehi, ie the Stern Gang were offering support to the Nazis in 1941. They also described their own actions as 'terrorism' on several occasions, so if you aren't going to believe them *shrug*
As to support for those beliefs in Israel, well, Likud is a direct descendant of the Revisionist split in zionism, ie the bit that was pals with Mussolini. Again, this is all well documented with sources of good provenance.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
You are wrong - completely and entirely wrong. Italian fascism developed and deepened the racist policies of the Italian colonial regimes in Eritrea, Libya and Somalia.
Gabriele D'Annunzio, the poet, adventurer and ultra-nationalist predecessor of fascism once said 'I glory in the fact that I am a Latin and I recognise a barbarian in every man of non-Latin blood'.
Note that appeal to 'blood' and note it well; that's not just a nationalist line, it's a view that sees membership of a national community as rooted in a biological 'race'. Such was the swamp from which fascism - all fascisms - emerged.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This kind of Romantic nonsense is very different from the 'scientific' racism of the Nazis.
As you know very well, the Stern Gang are regarded as heroic freedom-fighters by many Israelis (and also many American Jews). I do not believe that you are incapable of seeing how reasonable people might come to that conclusion (although I certainly do not believe it myself). I also do not believe that you can really think it ethical to ban such people from political bulletin boards.
But that's my point! Rachamin's views are part of the political mainstream in Israel (and also in the USA). The logic of your position is that we should ban all supporters of Likud. Is that what you think?
Also, his drug stories were worth the price of admission alone.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I take your point, but this is at least a question that ought to be debated, I would think. I know a lot more about Central Africa than Ethiopia, but it would appear that Mussolini's form of imperialism was uncannily similar to that practised by the British, French, Portuguese or any other European imperialists. I don't see anything uniquely 'fascist' about it.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Well, the point we're debating is whether or not 'non-racist Fascism' ever existed (as a lot of silly people will tell you). You and I can agree at least, on fascism's roots in 19th century European nationalist and imperialist ideology. We also agree that those 19th century ideologies had strong racist elements, also. Now, are we to suppose that fascism emerged from those 19th century ideologies but had a period of several years in which it did not carry over into the 20th century the racism of 19th century imperialism? Or is it more likely that racism was in fascism from the very beginning, as a direct inheritance from its 19th century forerunners?
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
My point is that rach's assertion that he was a 'fascist' isn't just a wild piece of hyperbole, given what he's also told us about his affiliations with organisations that are a core part of the historical strain of zionist-nationalist fascism and his expression of views consistent with that strain of zionism. So from my point of view, the analogous case would be Fridge banning a self-described ex-BNP 'blackshirt' who had a previous history of spewing fascist and racist crap.
I'm not bothered either way by his ban, as I wouldn't be by the analogous case I described. I suspect it was at least as much for being a propaganda-spewing troll uninterested in actual debate as for being an avowed fascist.
I'm not bothered either way by his ban, as I wouldn't be by the analogous case I described. I suspect it was at least as much for being a propaganda-spewing troll uninterested in actual debate as for being an avowed fascist.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You can't say that he didn't answer every single point put to him, though. Even, as someone else said on another thread, posters who just wandered into the thread to throw drunken abuse at him.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I found that even when he responded to my posts, he quoted what I'd said, but not with the quote function. He would write something close, but slightly different from what I'd said. That was annoying.
Annoyingness is not a bannable offence though so my carping is irrelevant
*carps*
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I agree totally. And I will modify my original statement: Pre-Nazi fascism was no less racist than the imperialist creeds of the UK and France.
However, it was first and foremost a nationalist ideology, and I do think that Nazi fascism was qualitatively different.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
If that were bannable, I'd be calling for the heads of several dozen posters!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
One of the interesting things about Italian fascism compared to German Nazism. is that the latter was largely based around defence of an existing race, whilst the former talked endlessly of the construction of a new race on the ruins of bourgeois society. And that race was very definitely white and very definitely not Jewish (see the harsh penalties for sexual contact with colonials -1-5 years minimim, even in Italy - for how concerned with the racial purity of this new race the Fascists were) There was of course backwards glance to Rome as well, but that really was a central motivating factor only in the early days.
In the immediate decades after WW2 the historical consensus was established by the work of Renzo de Felice (primarily) and Meir Michaelis. It went along the lines that Italian Fascism wasn't racist or anti-Semitic, legislation passed in 1938 and after didn't reflect public opinion, it only reflected Mussolini's opportunist foreign policy, the normal person neither supported nor acted in line with this official discrimination, during the war the Italian people and state protected the Jewish population as far as possible, until the German invasion, then they hindered and sabotaged the Germans plans to deport the Jews. That was the story and one of the founding myths of the republic.
The generation after this successfully challenged this consensus though and here's currently a massive ongoing debate on just this issue in Italy right now with revisionist studies arguing that the previously generally accepted consensus of a non-racist, non-anti-Semitic fascism is just a face-saving myth put about by the Italian establishment. (It's almost the reverse of the German debates where opposition and resistance found a new centrality after decades of the crudest sort of collective guilt type history.)
For example, studies detailing unforced Italian participation in the transports to the death camps began to appear (Fargaino estimated that 27% of the total transportation involved Italians alone, and 4% Germans and Italians), and the resistance to Jewish transportations has been explained as being a fortunate side result of the bureaucratic chaos following the fall of Mussolini, rather than a deliberate response - they resumed as soon as local authority was re-established.
There have also been extensive investigations of the pre-war public institutions that suggest they were rife with anti-Semitism (only two people in 150 state bodies resigned their posts and refused to comply with the discriminatory legislation passed in 1938). Anti-Semitism within the fascist movement has been pushed back further and further to well before the 1938 opportunism - although clearly not on the same level as in Germany - for instance The Italian fascists still had a Jewish fascist weekly newspaper in 1934, but were even at that early date isolated and forced to engage in constant self-defence against attacks on them from within their own movement.
Mussolini wasn’t personally anti-Semitic and his polices towards the Jews were purely opportunistic, welcoming their support and money in the early days and discarding them when it became expedient to do so. His "three punches to the stomach of the bourgeoisie" campaign served notice that he was going to sell them down the river, because he simply wasn't politically committed to the defence of them, or of any group that didn't constitute the new future race, a race that it goes without saying, would be white. In fascist imagery the Jew then became the exemplar of the bourgeois society that had to be destroyed so this great white rae could be born - they were portrayed as beneficiaries and moving spirits of all that the new state and the new race was to be built against.
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