So, can you source this quote?
No comerade, but I will ask around.
It is not a very marxist idea anyway especially when you consider that you're constantly exposed to bourgeois ideology every day as well as the assumptions that living in a capitalist society creates. I mean fuck I know a fair bit about marxism but I still have my prejudices and still am a product of the society I live and there's probably loads of shit I'm thinking/doing wrong that I don't even know about.
it was really a continuation of this logic you stated there. That even revolutionaries are product of this society.
It was made in reference to the Northern Star (that was the name of the Chartist newspaper, wasn't it.)
It was when I was at university, when we were studying Chartism, and the argument went basicly like this.
If you think about something like the Northern Star, it is a real expression of the working class. It is something they have produced for themselves, by themselves. However it is produced as part of their relationship with the ruling class. It is a product of their oppression, even if it is a product of their fight against oppression.
And so what on the surface looks like the purist manifestation of working class culture, it is, but only at the time when working class culture is distorted by its relationship to the ring class. (Hope that makes sense)
The only time you will have truly untainted, if you want, working class culture is in working class society, communism.
Now think about it from my perspective. This argument also undermines the idea a Vanguard party member, can have communist consciousness. This is why socialist worker argue, you need to have socialism, and then communism. Because there is nobody here and now who is not effected by capitalism. We cannot truly understand how the communards will run society, because we don't have a high enough level of consciousness. There will be a process where the party members as much as the working class get rid of the "muck of ages". The members of the Vanguard party DON'T have a high enough level of consciousness.
To me, recognising that
it's not the fact that people might have reactionary ideas or be more or less informed about stuff,
[.........]
I mean fuck I know a fair bit about marxism but I still have my prejudices and still am a product of the society I live and there's probably loads of shit I'm thinking/doing wrong that I don't even know about.
frog woman has a higher level of consciousness of the need for social revolution than a BNP member, is an elitist, just a statement of the blindingly obvious.
However, I do like her whole post, because it captures both sides of the argument.
it's not the fact that people might have reactionary ideas or be more or less informed about stuff, its the idea that being in the vanguard means you know more than anyone else, that you're part of an "advanced layer" or whatever. Surely Marxists should constantly re evaluate their positions and not just assume that their theories are correct which is what a "higher level of consciousness" is basically saying, that they know best. It is not a very marxist idea anyway especially when you consider that you're constantly exposed to bourgeois ideology every day as well as the assumptions that living in a capitalist society creates. I mean fuck I know a fair bit about marxism but I still have my prejudices and still am a product of the society I live and there's probably loads of shit I'm thinking/doing wrong that I don't even know about.
