Julie Burchill's attack on transsexuals...

[Balbi]

Help me on this one. Is part of Suzanne Moore's sins the fact that she used the word 'transsexual'?

The initial challenge was the unintentional use of the phrase 'brazilian transsexual' as it's a crude stereotype. The challenge itself was clumsy and twittery, and provoked anger from Moore who went on to intentionally use transphobic language.

Then write an article about how she knows trans people, and the real enemy is the tories and that it was over the top to criticise her for two words. But by then it wasn't two unintentional words, it was that plus some intended to cause offence. Unsurprisingly she got savaged in the comments.

Then Bindel and Burchill complain of a 'transsexual mob/cabal/gaggle' bullying Moore off twitter, with Moran, Jones etc also supporting Moore. And then Burchill decided that to defuse it, she'd put as many offensive transphobic words in one place.

 

[rosecore]

Moore's tweets were Storified

http://storify.com/leftytgirl/suzanne-moore-timeline-of-trans-misogynistic-twitt

 

[Sirena]

People are seizing on the use of language, when the actual problem is that she used a crude stereotype.

I think the Suzanne Moore role is just a piece of clumsiness by a person who has been part of the tranny scene and speaks loosely like a friend can. Burchill, on the other hand, is just being downright nasty.

 

[Firky]

I love the internet, spotted this trending.

 

[equationgirl]

People are seizing on the original use of her language, when the actual problem is that she used a crude stereotype.

A crude and somewhat offensive stereotype in my opinion.

Why do people say 'trans woman' anyway? Is it to try to highlight that they're 'not really' a woman? Is it to insult them?

 

[cesare]

I think the Suzanne Moore role is just a piece of clumsiness by a person who has been part of the tranny scene and speaks loosely like a friend can. Burchill, on the other hand, is just being downright nasty.

I'd agree, except that Moore then went on to being deliberately offensive. All this subsequent business of saying she had a problem with "trans" anything, and lopping dicks off etc.

 

[Firky]

A crude and somewhat offensive stereotype in my opinion.

Why do people say 'trans woman' anyway? Is it to try to highlight that they're 'not really' a woman? Is it to insult them?

Because liberals do love to pigeon hole.

 

[Balbi]

Trans woman is, I think, the term used by trans people when discussing the specifics. It's the gender/sex thing. Because obviously trans women and trans men are different, and transsexual makes it seem like a sexual preference based thing. I may be mistaken though.

 

[Firky]

I'd agree, except that Moore then went on to being deliberately offensive. All this subsequent business of saying she had a problem with "trans" anything, and lopping dicks off etc.

I honestly think she was drunk at the time, doing that "fuck it, i am going to go down in flames with guns blazing',"kind of thing people seem to do on the internet *cough*.

 

[cesare]

Trans woman is, I think, the term used by trans people when discussing the specifics. It's the gender/sex thing. Because obviously trans women and trans men are different, and transsexual makes it seem like a sexual preference based thing. I may be mistaken though.

That's what I thought too. It's not demeaning/insulting.

 

[Firky]

Trans woman is, I think, the term used by trans people

Precisely.

Outside of that it's a bit unnecessary.

 

[rosecore]

A crude and somewhat offensive stereotype in my opinion.

Why do people say 'trans woman' anyway? Is it to try to highlight that they're 'not really' a woman? Is it to insult them?

Because you have trans men also?

 

[cesare]

I honestly think she was drunk at the time, doing that "fuck it, i am going to go down in flames with guns blazing',"kind of thing people seem to do on the internet *cough*.

Maybe. Or perhaps in vino veritas.

 

[Sirena]

I'd agree, except that Moore then went on to being deliberately offensive. All this subsequent business of saying she had a problem with "trans" anything, and lopping dicks off etc.

I think she went on to be offensive because she was being badgered by one person who may or may not represent anyone's opinion but their own. I don't think the tranny community as a whole was attacking Moore.

 

[Firky]

Bit of both, whatever it was, she was a dick. But I think teh bigger dicks are some of those who defended her.



Why's my laptop not charging?

 

[Balbi]

Well, they weren't. Now though, despite Burchill's human shield, it may be different

 

[marty21]

Jb is 'off' and has been for some time imo. I've also been watching the bunfight between.Patrick Strudwick and Azaelia Banks. She seems.quite.the nasty piece of work even if.strud can be a bit precious at.times.

I've seen a bit of that - couldn't be bothered googling, but who is Azaelia Banks ?

 

[Sirena]

Trans woman is, I think, the term used by trans people when discussing the specifics. It's the gender/sex thing. Because obviously trans women and trans men are different, and transsexual makes it seem like a sexual preference based thing. I may be mistaken though.

The terms came from the political pressurising people in the tranny community in, probably the 80s. Transsexual was the commonly used word when the normal path was to identify, transition and, finally, to have corrective surgery. So there was an actual change of sexual characteristics.

But, in the 90s mainly, there was a big shift away from this either/or, male/female model, probably when the Asian trannies started arriving in Europe in numbers because their life-model allowed trannies to mooch happily on with their original sexual bits. And so the word 'transgender' became commoner (especially among politicos and commentators) because it was broader.

 

[Balbi]

Butler, performativity etc

 

[equationgirl]

That's what I thought too. It's not demeaning/insulting.

Except sometimes it does appear to be used as a perjorative term on occasion.

It got me thinking, because I think if someone I knew said they were a transwoman, I'd still see them as a woman like me.

It's like firky says, liberals love pigeonholes and labels. And writing books about pigeonholes and labels. I'm looking at you, intersectionality.

 

[madamv]

I've seen a bit of that - couldn't be bothered googling, but who is Azaelia Banks ?

From wiki. Azealia Amanda Banks (born May 31, 1991) is an American rapper and singer.[/quote]

 

[Belushi]

First thing I thought when i saw this thread this morning was 'Uh oh Julie's got a new book out'

I see it's just a reissue of Ambition, but the article is classic Burchill attention seeking.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I see it's just a reissue of Ambition, but the article is classic Burchill attention seeking.

At least she's not teamed up with Irvine Welsh for the reissue of Transpotting.

 

[Balbi]

Except sometimes it does appear to be used as a perjorative term on occasion.

It got me thinking, because I think if someone I knew said they were a transwoman, I'd still see them as a woman like me.

It's like firky says, liberals love pigeonholes and labels. And writing books about pigeonholes and labels. I'm looking at you, intersectionality.

I wouldn't so much blame the theory of intersectionality, as much as I would point at it being decontextualised and used as a pokemon style collection of oppression, creating a hierarchy or kyriarchy of the oppressed.

Theory's all very good, but when you start trying to implement it, you've got to know it inside out and be able to communicate it effectively unless you're actively seeking a distorted, dangerous counter productive effect of that theory.

It's not that it's a bad theory, but its basis even states that it's incredibly difficult to implement because you must either aim to erase all identity labels and discrete support of oppression through linguistic stuff, categorise all identities and understand in detail how the society in which they exists treat those labels and observe the changing relationships, or sort of both at the same time kind of.

And here''s the big sticker - the word intersectionality has been taken to mean all encompassing feminism, that it's ultimately inclusivity for all and equality for all. Which is fine, until you work out that the theory doesn't mean that at all. And people saying "MY FEMINISM WILL BE INTERSECTIONAL OR IT WILL BE BULLSHIT" is just shouty catchphrase activism, and can be used to shut down debate.

Or. Alternatively, this, http://thoughtsfromtheline.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/dodging-traffic-at-the-intersection/

 

[marty21]

From wiki. Azealia Amanda Banks (born May 31, 1991) is an American rapper and singer.

[/quote]
none the wiser, burd or geezer?

 

[equationgirl]

none the wiser, burd or geezer?[/quote]
Young female rapper.

 

[maomao]

My main beef with JB is that we share all the consonants in our surname but none of the vowels and people routinely miss-spell and mis-pronounce my name as hers.

 

[rosecore]

Nick Cohen seems to think her article is fine

I'm sorry mobish people scream abuse at a leftwing feminist and then complain when her friends reply in kind?

https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/290056331291926528

 

[equationgirl]

I wouldn't so much blame the theory of intersectionality, as much as I would point at it being decontextualised and used as a pokemon style collection of oppression, creating a hierarchy or kyriarchy of the oppressed.

Theory's all very good, but when you start trying to implement it, you've got to know it inside out and be able to communicate it effectively unless you're actively seeking a distorted, dangerous counter productive effect of that theory.

It's not that it's a bad theory, but its basis even states that it's incredibly difficult to implement because you must either aim to erase all identity labels and discrete support of oppression through linguistic stuff, categorise all identities and understand in detail how the society in which they exists treat those labels and observe the changing relationships, or sort of both at the same time kind of.

And here''s the big sticker - the word intersectionality has been taken to mean all encompassing feminism, that it's ultimately inclusivity for all and equality for all. Which is fine, until you work out that the theory doesn't mean that at all. And people saying "MY FEMINISM WILL BE INTERSECTIONAL OR IT WILL BE BULLSHIT" is just shouty catchphrase activism, and can be used to shut down debate.

Or. Alternatively, this, http://thoughtsfromtheline.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/dodging-traffic-at-the-intersection/

Thanks for the explanation. I liked the blog too

 

[Balbi]

Should put a warning, I have only been reading about this for two or three days, about five hours of reading total