Immigration and the "racist thickos"

[mentalchik]

Our Queen of course of immigrant stock married to an immigrant. Churchill's mother famously an immigrant. Etc etc and of course people die in war for no reason at all, or for reasons to which they would object more frequently than they do for things like democracy etc. I think what your customer was getting at was well heeled immigrants welcome, wc ones less so. By pointing out inconsistencies in their views maybe you could get them to question their ideas. Maybe.

Would have loved to but think i would probably lose my job if i got into it with a customer ! It's not the first time i've heard such stuff...tbh people that think like that are not,ime,generally open minded to a contrary opinion

 

[Pickman's model]

Would have loved to but think i would probably lose my job if i got into it with a customer ! It's not the first time i've heard such stuff...tbh people that think like that are not,ime,generally open minded to a contrary opinion

Yeh. I dunno, you fits your arguments to your audience but more difficult when the time's not your own.

 

[seventh bullet]

Mercifully the less/un reachable "racist thickos" do seem thin on the ground, most of the time, if marches by and votes for neo-fascists are anything to go by. But neo-fascism has stuck its ugly head above the parapet before and probably will again.

Yeah, it's a mistake to view open fascists as 'thick,' as evidenced by the reactions to more 'lumpen' displays of racist bigotry. Or indeed mistaking poor and working class (or even falling lower middle) with the above based on more superficial cultural signifiers. The 'left' has used its double-barrelled middle class shotgun and blown its own feet off doing this. It has to be of the working class, not something alien stamped Socialism and delivered from the outside. The 'left' has decades of hard work ahead of it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I have heard a LOT of this type of attitude where i am....just writing it off as racist (although this undoubtably was) and/or thick is stupid and condescending...whether right or wrong headed this is the way a huge no of people actually think about this...this town has also had a large influx of migrants over the last 20 years and it has caused an impact. The attitude in that conversation is not an isolated incident, i hear similar all the time and i'm not sure how it can be combatted !

By the same token, characterising racism as 'right or wrong headed' isn't going to help either. In fact it's massively condescending and is the kind of dismissiveness that I associate the idea that people 'simply need to grow a thicker skin' with. The question is what do we do about it?

 

[Spymaster]

That said, this stuff didn't happen because of the referendum, it was already there.

The underlying sentiment may have been there but the willingness to publicly express it for many that are now doing so, most certainly wasn't. The referendum result has filliped the right and emboldened bigots into believing that expressing their views is now more normal and acceptable.

 

[YouSir]

The underlying sentiment may have been there but the willingness to publicly express it for many that are now doing so, most certainly wasn't. The referendum result has filliped the right and emboldened bigots into believing that expressing their views is now more normal and acceptable.

Something that would have happened sooner or later regardless I think. Certainly has in other countries which are closer to the heart of the EU, which are far from trying to exit it. Knowing those mentalities and combating them has just been thrown into sharp relief now.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes the eu's role in producing that far right within itself - and across a broad range of social/political/economic conditions - hasn't been thrown into such sharp relief.

 

[Biscuitician]

The issue of immigration is not something I claim huge expertise on. I've tried looking up numbers and figures and the best I can find does point to a net rise. Whether that is a negative thing is another matter.

For a long time I have been broadly against those who criticise immigration. In the main I stand by this position, mainly because of the dogwhistle nature of the discussion. However it is quite clear that there are deep divisions in our society over this. Working class communities perceive, rightly or wrongly, that the recent immigration 'wave' has adversely affected them. This i think has been a large player in the decision to leave. The real tragedy is the abject failure of capitalists and the lobbyists (politicians) to deal with this, for whatever reason. Consequently the EU is seen as acting in the interests of europe-wide capitalists to facilitate cheap labour.

I defended immigration because I feel that, beyond these issues, there is a fundamental principle that I care about: I believe there should be open borders and that people should not be limited in their experience and opportunities by the artifice of the ruling elite. Unfortunately with capitalism ascendant that remains a pipe dream. I still defend it on that basis, but it is clear this issue must be addressed. If Corbyn is going to challenge Cameron (or even his own right wing party members) and if we are going to oust the next, more vicious, iteration of the Tory machine, then I think, once and for all, this must be addressed. Why did Labour, in government, not address issues of integration? Why did they not help those communities that, at least, perceived they were struggling with being 'swamped'? Where were the efforts to help Muslims, as the bogeyman de jour, feel part of this country and, perhaps more importantly, help the working class 'natives' feel they were not threatened by them in any way? The EU had nothing to offer on this it seems and so the country said fuck off, and now these wounds are seeping to the fore.

I find racists and racism very disturbing. These tweets and facebook comments scare me, I've no shame in admitting that. But these issues need addressing.

I just wanted to see that. I'm sure it's nothing terribly insightful

 

[YouSir]

Yes the eu's role in producing that far right within itself - and across a broad range of social/political/economic conditions - hasn't been thrown into such sharp relief.

Give it time. Assuming Nazis don't start roaming the streets any time soon then sooner or later those people shouting 'racist thickos' are going to have to explain stuff like the German far right. If the EU is a beautiful ideal that negates racism and bigotry how do they exist? How can the EU have the attitudes towards non-EU immigration that it does?

I say they'll have to, obviously they won't.

 

[butchersapron]

Give it time. Assuming Nazis don't start roaming the streets any time soon then sooner or later those people shouting 'racist thickos' are going to have to explain stuff like the German far right. If the EU is a beautiful ideal that negates racism and bigotry how do they exist? How can the EU have the attitudes towards non-EU immigration that it does?

I say they'll have to, obviously they won't.

It never got through to these people when the BNP was at it's height, it never went in during the rise of UKIP. It's never going to go in. They've built a world view that would collapse if they had to take stuff like that on board. They'd have to build new identities, new politics. Not going to happen. It could not be shown to them more starkly than this last week and how have they reacted? By doubling down. (In exactly the same way the german middle classes did in the late 20s btw)

 

[butchersapron]

It's, in fact, become increasingly clear that any substantial social change to the benefit of the working classes across europe and wider is going to have to carried out against the progressives. Not the sort of civil rights stuff that capitalism can deal with and recuperate, the nice stuff, i mean the real social relation challenging stuff.

 

[oryx]

The main problem is not 'racist thickos' but a racist and right wing media that promotes anti-immigration sentiment and a jingoistic 'let's go it alone' approach with the underlying implication that we can do this, we're the greatest nation on earth.

 

[YouSir]

The main problem is not 'racist thickos' but a racist and right wing media that promotes anti-immigration sentiment and a jingoistic 'let's go it alone' approach with the underlying implication that we can do this, we're the greatest nation on earth.

Which they've been doing for years. Although going by some reactions I've seen it was all harmless fun until the proles voted Leave, now its their fault.

 

[brogdale]

The main problem is not 'racist thickos' but a racist and right wing media that promotes anti-immigration sentiment and a jingoistic 'let's go it alone' approach with the underlying implication that we can do this, we're the greatest nation on earth.

The promotion of anti-immigrant sentiment is one thing, but simultaneously promoting the myth that Brexit would/will effect reduced immigration is another. Saw this vox pop clip on C4News last night...(I'm not endorsing the interpretation that it is some way hilarious btw). The respondent is clearly under the impression that his decision to vote leave would stop (Muslim) immigration from outside the EU into the UK.

 

[Pickman's model]

The promotion of anti-immigrant sentiment is one thing, but simultaneously promoting the myth that Brexit would/will effect reduced immigration is another. Saw this vox pop clip on C4News last night...(I'm not endorsing the interpretation that it is some way hilarious btw). The respondent is clearly under the impression that his decision to vote leave would stop (Muslim) immigration from outside the EU into the UK.

Net migration up to 600,000+ next year as UK nationals flee uk

 

[brogdale]

Net migration up to 600,000+ next year as UK nationals flee uk

That would reduce net migration.

 

[Pickman's model]

That would reduce net migration.

 

[bi0boy]

 

[quimcunx]

I'm sure you could just as easily get a similar video of a remain voter tbf.

 

[treelover]

The British industrial working class has historically been a phenomenal force for progress. It created the Trade Union movement, brought about universal male suffrage, launched the Labour Party, and despite or probably because of bearing the brunt of two world wars and the Depression, it voted in the Welfare State in 1945. The British working class, however, was fatally defeated when the miners strike was broken in 1985 and then atomised by Thatcher's de-industrialisation policy. Today those people whom the media and the Anti-Corbyn LP variously call the "traditional working class", the "white working class", "traditional Labour voters" are marginalised, economically insignificant, with a low level political consciousness and they are getting older. Marx would have defined most of them as lumpen-proletariat, with some progressing into the petit-bourgeoisie - both classes that have historically been the bedrock of fascism. Labour cannot and should not spend all its energies chasing these people's votes at any cost (i.e. colluding with ignorant racism, islamophobia and xenophobia) and needs to look forward and find new constituencies such as young people with precarious employment and insecure accommodation, including the children of the traditional working class and of BAME communities, as well as the masses of ex-students who are saddled with monstrous debts.

posted on private Momentum forum, all that is wrong with the unreconstructed left.

 

[ska invita]

Give it time. Assuming Nazis don't start roaming the streets any time soon then sooner or later those people shouting 'racist thickos' are going to have to explain stuff like the German far right. If the EU is a beautiful ideal that negates racism and bigotry how do they exist? How can the EU have the attitudes towards non-EU immigration that it does?

I say they'll have to, obviously they won't.

Its not about the EU negating racism, its about the racist UKIP right having campaigned on an openly xenophoic platform and winning and therefore validating those sentiments as justifiable and acceptable. I also disagree with the idea that if the EU were never invented Europe would now be free from a resurgent far right. The collapse of the soviet union, the reintegration of the former Eastern Bloc into a globalised marketplace would have happened anyway, and Ive not heard anything convincing to say that their lot would have been better if only the EU didnt exist.

Meanwhile...
"Seema Malhotra [...] reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance."

Fact is many people I know who arent white and English living in England are nervous, if not outright scared. For those of us who have been on the end of racist/natonalistic abuse before all the alarm bells are ringing, and have been for a while now.

 

[bi0boy]

I'm sure you could just as easily get a similar video of a remain voter tbf.

No, remain voters are all educated middle-class liberals.

 

[ska invita]

i relate to anyone just wanting a good egg tbf.

 

[keybored]

I'm sure you could just as easily get a similar video of a remain voter tbf.

If you can find one with a sense of humour at the moment to produce satire that good.

 

[Coolfonz]

Bliddy good, he gets straight to the heart of the matter, but bit puzzled by this reference?

"As in 1932, Britain has become the first country to break with the institutional form of the global order"
?

Gold standard

 

[friendofdorothy]

I've heard of a couple of incidents from friends, one witnessed an Eastern European waitress being asked 'why are you smiling when you're getting deported'.

I think there's generally been a rise in this sort of thing in recent years - I'm wondering if the fact people can more comfortably get away with spouting bigoted shit on social media/btl without being challenged (at least in person) gets them more used to this sort of behaviour, or makes them feel emboldened when others join in, such that it more readily spills into the real world. I think 'Brexit' just gives them a theme for their comments but isn't necessarily the driver of the behaviour.

I don't really know how it gets fixed (other than some aggressive moderating of comments sections or social media, but that involves actually employing people, and can feed that victimisation complex that a lot of bigots thrive on.

Yes I think some people with very ignorant views do feel emboldened. As if EU membership was the only reason that immigration happens. Looks like the referendum result has given them confidence to say rude things to people they perceive as immigrants out loud in public.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Im getting increasingly pissed off with what seems like a whitesplaining of racism, and an attempt to make critique of racism look like an attack on the working class. The racism has been heavily sponsored and stoked by the ruling class, and plenty of middle class people are racist to some degree.

Its not a binary issue, as if we're all either Desmond Tutu or David Duke with no in between. "You're saying theres racism means you think the working class are thick" thpe comments are simplistic strawman bollocks and cold comfort to the disturbing numbers of victims being reported today.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

This is a good observation from another forum JUSTtheTalk:


The referendum has allowed the immigrant hating Europe baiting right to establish hegemony by forging an alliance between traditional middle England and disenchanted traditional labour England.

Their values have to be challenged.

 

[inva]

Im getting increasingly pissed off with what seems like a whitesplaining of racism, and an attempt to make critique of racism look like an attack on the working class. The racism has been heavily sponsored and stoked by the ruling class, and plenty of middle class people are racist to some degree.

Its not a binary issue, as if we're all either Desmond Tutu or David Duke with no in between. "You're saying theres racism means you think the working class are thick" thpe comments are simplistic strawman bollocks and cold comfort to the disturbing numbers of victims being reported today.

who's doing that then?

 

[seventh bullet]

You should see his 'comedy' blogs about thick racist working class people.