How will you vote in the EU Referendum: Post financial waterboarding edition

[MochaSoul]

It'll be worse without that protection.

Playing good cop, bad cop only works temporarily.

 

[rover07]

 

[Supine]

Are you deliberately being a cunt?

Well done on using the big c word. I stand by what I said.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Well done on using the big c word. I stand by what I said.

Because you're a patronizing moron.

 

[cesare]

Playing good cop, bad cop only works temporarily.

Explain please.

 

[Supine]

Because you're a patronizing moron.

Hey, I have an opinion based on my knowledge and experience. You may not like it, but just being rude without any kind of debate to see if you can understand my pov is lame. I can't see who I have patronized and I don't like the word moron btw.

 

[MochaSoul]

Explain please.

The success of the EU is in that it's fashioned itself a protective of human dignity, freedom and democracy persona. When push comes to shove you have to have the money or the means to getting it to protect yourself against all that comes your way... and if it comes from the EU itself, it will bare its teeth at you and you'll be fucked. Europe siding with financial inteests in the face of the human catastrophe that affronts us in Greece is just the most barefaced of its bad cop personality so far.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The success of the EU is in that it's fashioned itself a protective of human dignity, freedom and democracy persona. When push comes to shove you have to have the money or the means to getting it to protect yourself against all that comes your way... and if it comes from the EU itself, it will bare its teeth at you and you'll be fucked. Europe siding with financial inteests in the face of the human catastrophe that affronts us in Greece is just the most barefaced of its bad cop personality so far.

I'm not denying any of that, but the EU isn't just one thing, is it?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Hey, I have an opinion based on my knowledge and experience. You may not like it, but just being rude without any kind of debate to see if you can understand my pov is lame. I can't see who I have patronized and I don't like the word moron btw.

I don't like the fact that you think your view is somehow of more worth than that of a "lay person". Nor have you cited any relevant knowledge and experience that gives you any weight whatsoever to set yourself up as superior to the "lay person".

 

[Supine]

I don't like the fact that you think your view is somehow of more worth than that of a "lay person". Nor have you cited any relevant knowledge and experience that gives you any weight whatsoever to set yourself up as superior to the "lay person".

You hadn't asked me to... Anyway - time up for me on this one today. Its almost 10pm and I need to leave the internet for a while.

 

[belboid]

They have secured opt outs on loads of stuff. What are they actively trying to opt out of?

They haven't really, Major got a lot of opt outs, then Blair overturned them, and Cameron hasn't yet brought them back. They're currently wanting to opt out of the working time directive and agency workers' directive - as you well know

 

[MochaSoul]

I'm not denying any of that, but the EU isn't just one thing, is it?

Who cares? When push comes to shove, it doesn't empower its weaker sides. It will either be so remote it's harder to reach for the so called protection it offers or openly and unashamedly join the powerful. That the weakest of the EU happen to be its various population masses is the irony.

 

[gentlegreen]

Nothing like an emotive thread title eh ?

 

[frogwoman]

Hey, I have an opinion based on my knowledge and experience. You may not like it, but just being rude without any kind of debate to see if you can understand my pov is lame. I can't see who I have patronized and I don't like the word moron btw.

there are loads of pro-EU people who base their views on what their mates say, what they read in some newspaper, etc. To say you dont want the "wrong" view to win so you don't think the referendum should happen shows a lot of contempt for democracy and the general public. I reckon the stay in the EU vote will probably win but that doesn't mean I don't think the referendum shouldn't happen.

 

[cesare]

The success of the EU is in that it's fashioned itself a protective of human dignity, freedom and democracy persona. When push comes to shove you have to have the money or the means to getting it to protect yourself against all that comes your way... and if it comes from the EU itself, it will bare its teeth at you and you'll be fucked. Europe siding with financial inteests in the face of the human catastrophe that affronts us in Greece is just the most barefaced of its bad cop personality so far.

That's just an argument against the State, with EU being the overarching State. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But to imagine that removal from the EU state will mean that employment will be somehow better is as short sighted as imagining that there will be no discrimination post revolution.

 

[mauvais]

I have changed from 'yes' to 'don't know', but there's a little more to it than that.

The 'yes' that I have long supported, albeit conditionally and tentatively, has been made more difficult, no doubt. The prior narrative, or possible narrative configuration at least, of an unstable, premature and incompetent economic expansion project was one thing - ends, means, balance with the social project, etcetera. The now apparent narrative of what actually happens when push comes to shove is another. Its behaviour and nature is not an enormous surprise but I genuinely never expected the mask to so thoroughly slip so quickly. I know it's naive but I'm surprised and appalled by how brazen and unapologetic it is. Wars have been fought over less, and history will not be kind.

However...

I have exactly no more respect for the proponents of 'No' than I did before. I have a mixture of apathy and contempt, depending on what apparently motivates them. The dominant Eurosceptic voices in this episode have been of isolationists and nationalists, who care as little for Greece as they do for the contemporary EU. Noone is calling for reform, noone is putting forth a better internationalist proposition, and so I'm apparently expected to choose between continuing this catastrophe and a hopeless retreat into a cave. The French and Italian establishments are the closest ally, for fuck's sake. To me, this confirms my suspicions that the left version of the Eurosceptic crowd have nothing more to offer than, 'well, not this' and will be a clueless, impotent irrelevance as soon as they get their wish granted.

The whole lot of them can fuck off. All that's really happened is it's become a more miserable choice.

 

[MochaSoul]

That's just an argument against the State, with EU being the overarching State. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But to imagine that removal from the EU state will mean that employment will be somehow better is as short sighted as imagining that there will be no discrimination post revolution.

Who needs a state on top of a state? How does it help the people of the different masses that when they park themselves en masse in front of their parliaments those parliaments can simply say, "The EU made us do it."

 

[cesare]

Who needs a state on top of a state? How does it help the people of the different masses that when they park themselves en masse in front of their parliaments those parliaments can simply say, "The EU made us do it."

I don't think we need a State on top of a State. I don't think we need a State at all. But until then, I don't want to go back to the days of part time people (mostly women) earning less pro rata, that employment rights aren't protected on transfer of undertakings, no paid holidays etc etc etc.

 

[MochaSoul]

I don't think we need a State on top of a State. I don't think we need a State at all. But until then, I don't want to go back to the days of part time people (mostly women) earning less pro rata, that employment rights aren't protected on transfer of undertakings, no paid holidays etc etc etc.

I go back to my mum's fighting for her labour rights and being striped of them by none other than the EU. Except my mum can't afford to park herself in Brussels and if she joins a strike, in Portugal, Brussels doesn't even flicker. But you know what? Cameron is on a mission to erode workers rights in the EU. Let us see how successful he isn't.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Gone from abstain to out. The EU is now revealed as operating like a cross between Putin's russia and wonga. Dont want to be party to propping up that shit.

 

[cesare]

I go back to my mum's fighting for her labour rights and being striped of them by none other than the EU. Except my mum can't afford to park herself in Brussels and if she joins a strike, in Portugal, Brussels doesn't even flicker. But you know what? Cameron is on a mission to erode workers rights in the EU. Let us see how successful he isn't.

He's on a mission to erode workers rights in the EU but most of all, in the UK.

 

[MochaSoul]

but most of all, in the UK.

And therein lies the rub. The various peoples of the European Project are only too willing to throw each other overboard when convenient. If for nothing else than to demolish the monumental con that "Solidarity" really is, within the EU, it must go.

 

[chilango]

My position has shifted from "in" to "don't know".

I'm still very much in favour of a European Union. But perhaps, now, not this one.

 

[danny la rouge]

I've always been very strongly in favour of staying in Europe

We would, of course, stay in Europe as a matter of geographic, not to say geological, necessity.

I've always favoured a closely linked Europe of solidarity between peoples. The EU, it must now be clear to all, is not, however, the institution to deliver that. It is instead a bankers', bureaucrats' and technocrats' tyranny that can overturn the democratically expressed wishes of any member state it feels deserves to be humiliated for daring to question the austerity consensus.

How can anyone look at what has been done to Greece and say they favour the EU?

The project needs to be scrapped.

 

[danny la rouge]

To those saying "don't throw the baby out with the bath water", the baby was drowned last night and deserves a decent funeral.

 

[cesare]

To those saying "don't throw the baby out with the bath water", the baby was drowned last night and deserves a decent funeral.

What would you say to those that are saying, let's throw it all out but there are significant downsides that we need to be very clear about and be prepared to take up arms about?

 

[MochaSoul]

What would you say to those that are saying, let's throw it all out but there are significant downsides that we need to be very clear about and be prepared to take up arms about?

I say, build a decent labour movement.

 

[danny la rouge]

What would you say to those that are saying, let's throw it all out but there are significant downsides that we need to be very clear about and be prepared to take up arms about?

To those people I say: I agree.

 

[MochaSoul]

What would you say to those that are saying, let's throw it all out but there are significant downsides that we need to be very clear about and be prepared to take up arms about?

I'd say more, don't wait, like the Greek, the Potuguese, the Spanish working class did, for the EU to support you when the stakes get higher.

 

[cesare]

I'd say more, don't wait, like the Greek, the Potuguese, the Spanish working class did, for the EU to support you when the stakes get higher.

No State will support the working class.