How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[Dan U]

Pm it?

 

[DaveCinzano]

Pm?

But which one?

 

[Wilf]

The mail are quoting this from Danczuk's book, making it plain something more than 'spanking bare bottoms' was known about in the Libs/SDP before the 83 election:

• "In the 1980s Smith’s car was pulled over on the motorway near Northampton and traffic officers discovered child porn in the boot. Local police wanted to press charges but a phone call was made from London and the MP was released without charge.

• One young Liberal activist was sexually assaulted in Smith’s office in the House of Commons in the 1980s as other MPs, including Labour leader Michael Foot, walked by.

• Smith’s alleged abuse of boys was publicly raised during the 1987 general election by his Labour opponent David Williams. ‘Everyone in Rochdale heard rumours about him, and I believed they should be properly investigated,’ he said. ‘Perhaps it was dirty politics on my behalf , But Cyril Smith was a dirty politician, so I decided to do it.’

• A former campaigner for the Social Democratic Party, then in an alliance with the Liberal Party, said senior party officials panicked during the 1983 election through fear that Smith would be exposed as a child abuser. Charles Baker, an SDP activist in Hertfordshire, said: ‘There was a kind of an alert, an alarm that one of the other parties had got hold of the fact that Cyril Smith had interfered with boys yet again.’

• Smith was a visitor to the notorious Elm Guest house in south-west London, now the focus of a Scotland Yard investigation into an alleged VIP paedophile ring in the 1980s. "

I was in the Labour Party in the next door constituency in 87. I (very) vaguely remember the issue of the Rochdale Party raising the accusations against Smith in the election, though I can't remember whether it was 'just' the original RAP allegations or something wider. It was seen as controversial and possibly counter productive, particularly as the story hadn't really gained traction at that point. Interestingly, the mail are saying George Carmen had been engaged to kill the story. Anyway, Steel is a lying shit.

 

[Wilf]

Has anyone read the Danczuk book? Glanced at a few free pages on amazon, where it was weaving Smith with the history of the town, but I'm not great at reading stuff on screen so gave up. A bit of me baulks at giving money to an MP (unless of course he's donating profits somewhere or other?).

 

[ViolentPanda]

There is a name being banded around on the lesser loon conspiraloon sites - a huge name in New Labour no less - but will probably in time just be another of those big names that inhabit the fringes and never see the light of day.

There have been a few names doing the rounds since the '90s. One I don't give much credence to is a prominent New Labour figure who's gay, as the allegations were very much made before he'd "come out" (the usual "nudge and a wink" stuff in the media, and the more scurrilous stuff on the net), and pretty much dead-ended after he did come out, not least because the rumours had him noncing children of both sexes, and his coming-out merely confirmed what his close friends and associates had always known.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Saw this on twitter today. A load of clippings about abuse at a children's home in Lambeth

http://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/category/lambeth/

The Mirror piece reflects a lot of "folk knowledge" from this neck of the woods 20-30 years ago, although I'd go further and say it wasn't happening at just one children's home (as reflected in the "spotlight" clippings"), and that it was still going on into the '90s at the least.

 

[DaveCinzano]

• A former campaigner for the Social Democratic Party, then in an alliance with the Liberal Party, said senior party officials panicked during the 1983 election through fear that Smith would be exposed as a child abuser. Charles Baker, an SDP activist in Hertfordshire, said: ‘There was a kind of an alert, an alarm that one of the other parties had got hold of the fact that Cyril Smith had interfered with boys yet again.’

This bit prompted me to have a quick look through the Crewe/King book on the SDP, which reminds us that Smith was very much against getting into bed with the ex-Labour turncoats, and that he was openly defiant against his party leader's wishes, particularly in 1983 (that is, four years after Steel ineffectually “challenging” him over the allegations).

Nothing of any real interest apart from this, though there is this - with hindsight - unpleasant metaphor out of the mouth of Tom McNally (who was a former Callaghan advisor, briefly a Labour MP before defecting to the SDP, came third in his constituency in the '83 election, and subsequently made a Lib Dem peer):

Big Cyril said he would have liked to strangle us at birth. Being smothered by him at three years of age would be no less disagreeable.

 

[Wilf]

This bit prompted me to have a quick look through the Crewe/King book on the SDP, which reminds us that Smith was very much against getting into bed with the ex-Labour turncoats, and that he was openly defiant against his party leader's wishes, particularly in 1983 (that is, four years after Steel ineffectually “challenging” him over the allegations).

Nothing of any real interest apart from this, though there is this - with hindsight - unpleasant metaphor out of the mouth of Tom McNally - a former Callaghan advisor, briefly a Labour MP before defecting to the SDP, who came third in his constituency in the '83 election, and was subsequently made a Lib Dem peer:

Cheers. The bit from the Danczuk book you quoted, along with the stuff already in the public domain via RAP/Private Eye together suggest there was open discussion in the political class about him. When you add in the file M15 got their hands on in 1974 it's almost certain there was knowledge of wider accusations than the original Cambridge House story. All of which makes Steel's emphasis that he had no knowledge of wrongdoing 'in his role as an Mp' more galling.

 

[laptop]

[Steel] only knew what was in Private Eye; he didn't acknowledge that he'd read the material from the Rochdale Alternative Press... which seems a little odd/remiss in the circumstances.

I seem to recall that Private Eye (eventually) ran a rather full summary of the RAP allegations revelations.

 

[butchersapron]

Linked to a few weeks back on here. Didn't really go into much detail though.

 

[laptop]

Linked to a few weeks back on here. Didn't really go into much detail though.

That was just the one Eye story, wasn't it? There were scads. When the Eye eventually summoned the nerve...

 

[butchersapron]

That was just the one Eye story, wasn't it? There were scads. When the Eye eventually summoned the nerve...

Don't know, don't read the thing! Would expect so though.

 

[ibilly99]

Cyril Smith was a right bastard all round - it seems he even tried to cover up his activities for an asbestos firm that was in his constituency. I think we are getting closer to a 'Savile Grave Skip' scenario.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...yril-there-was-no-cover-up-on-asbestos-965742

That said in old age he started to resemble Mark E. Smith.

 

[brogdale]

1. ExaroNews ‏@ExaroNews 7h
   6/6 Leics Police is, basically, seeking advice from CPS as to whether it should arrest Lord #Janner under ‘Operation #Enamel’ .
   
   
2. ExaroNews ‏@ExaroNews 7h
   3/6 ‘Operation #Enamel’ last month passed a file of evidence to CPS re Lord #Janner, formerly a prominent Labour MP.
   
   
   
3. ExaroNews ‏@ExaroNews 7h
   2/6 Last December, Leicestershire Police confirmed to us that it had raided London home of Lord #Janner for probe into historical claims.
   
   
   
4. ExaroNews ‏@ExaroNews 8h
   1/6 Leicestershire Police confirms to us: investigation into claims of child sex abuse against Lord #Janner is called ‘Operation #Enamel’.
   

 

[elbows]

The Mirror piece reflects a lot of "folk knowledge" from this neck of the woods 20-30 years ago, although I'd go further and say it wasn't happening at just one children's home (as reflected in the "spotlight" clippings"), and that it was still going on into the '90s at the least.

I hadnt realised till just now how many follow-up articles they have done already. Probably most notable for its detail is this one:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/politician-suspected-child-abuse-would-3468158

The retired social services boss told detectives how the politician suspected of child abuse would spend evenings with the convicted paedophile who ran the home.

The witness said the man would arrive alone and then join Michael Carroll in an annex where the beast is known to have attacked a string of youngsters.

Carroll was the only person convicted of abuse linked to the home, despite a number of children claiming they were attacked by other men there.

The witness accused Scotland Yard of covering up the alleged abuse after she originally gave evidence to then-detective inspector Clive Driscoll in 1998.

She said the Metropolitan Police failed to follow up on her evidence after they removed Mr Driscoll from the investigation.

Detectives from the Met’s Child Abuse Investigation Command have now taken statements from her, after she was tracked down during a 16-month Mirror investigation.

The witness said in the late 1980s, while still working for Lambeth, she saw the politician’s name in the visitors’ book at the home as well as in a log book, which included details of which children were taken out.

She then confronted Carroll. “I said, ‘you have friends in high places’. He said something like, ‘I don’t know why you lot keep going on about him coming here, it’s not the only children’s home he goes to’.”

She said records showed the politician took boys out aged 12 to 15, but would sometimes be accompanied by Carroll with children under 10.

 

[elbows]

Mr Blair’s spokesman said: “Mr Blair has absolutely no recollection of this ever being brought to his attention.

“Of course if there is evidence of any wrongdoing that should be handed to the relevant authorities for full investigation.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tony-blair-demands-investigation-claims-3484990

 

[elbows]

Should also point out that the Mirror were running with at least some aspects of the story in March 2013.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/paedophile-mp-cover-up-claim-detective-1785273

 

[butchersapron]

Big old piece in exaro tonight:

Ex-cabinet minister raped me when I was 19

This was in 1967 before he was an MP. Tom Watson is backing her claims to have been treated wrong by Fernbridge.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Big old piece in exaro tonight:

Ex-cabinet minister raped me when I was 19

Seems to be down at the moment...

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme....nister-raped-me-when-i-was-19-woman-tells-met

 

[fishfinger]

Seems to be down at the moment...

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme....nister-raped-me-when-i-was-19-woman-tells-met

It's working here!

 

[Blagsta]

its down for me too

 

[brogdale]

So the Met think its Jane's fault for not making it clear enough that she did not consent. Handy.

 

[Blagsta]

back up now

 

[laptop]

So the Met think its Jane's fault for not making it clear enough that she did not consent. Handy.

As she says:

“I do not feel that the police have handled this any differently from how it would have been handled if I had gone to them in 1967.”

 

[DaveCinzano]

Whoa

Was Bulic Forsythe killed to protect paedophile ring 'linked to future minister in Tony Blair’s government?'

Cold case detectives are probing the murder of a council official who vowed to expose a paedophile ring allegedly linked to a future minister in Tony Blair’s government.

The daughter of Bulic Forsythe believes her father may have been killed because he uncovered a children’s home vice ring involving powerful figures.

Bulic told a new witness, tracked down in a Mirror investigation, that he suspected vulnerable youngsters were being assaulted by an organised gang at one home said to have been visited by the Labour politician.

But days later Bulic, 42, was beaten to death in his flat and the case has remained unsolved for 21 years.

Documents reveal detective Clive Driscoll advised the investigation should be reopened when he found potential links to his 1998 children’s homes probe in Lambeth, South London.

But Mr Driscoll was removed from the case for naming the Blair minister as a suspect and Bulic’s murder file has not been touched for 14 years.

...Bulic was last seen alive at 8.45pm on Wednesday, February 4, 1993.

A BBC Crimewatch broadcast five months later revealed that at 10am on the Thursday three official looking men were seen by a neighbour carrying files away from his flat in Clapham, South London.

Two more men were seen in a car behind the property at 2pm. His bedroom was torched at 1am on Friday and the oven turned on.

...Paedophiles abused children in Lambeth’s homes for decades.

A former social services manager told Mr Driscoll in 1998 that she saw the future Blair minister making evening visits to the Angell Road children’s home in Brixton in the early 80s.

She claimed she learnt he had visited South Vale.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bulic-forsythe-killed-protect-paedophile-3578788

The article definitely drifts towards Hilda Murrell-type speculation territory - but how does the Lambeth stuff fit into the other investigations? elbows?

 

[el-ahrairah]

blimey!

 

[elbows]

The article definitely drifts towards Hilda Murrell-type speculation territory - but how does the Lambeth stuff fit into the other investigations? elbows?

Not enough information about any new investigations regarding Lambeth, and the Mirror appears to be the only fresh source of info on all aspects relating to Lambeth. We usually get to hear about the names of the other investigations and scoping exercises from Exaro. Leaving aside events involving children's homes etc outside London, the vast bulk of what we've heard about surrounds one home in particular, and the guest house where abuse may of occurred. That investigation has developed a number of branches, but I do not believe anything has emerged so far that would link that stuff to the Lambeth stuff. And the political party affiliation of the alleged perpetrator is usually disclosed in the press, and doesn't match in these two cases.

But to be honest thats not much of a guide to reality as the vast bulk of what we have heard about in the last year+ is stuff that was already talked about at the time in the press, or gone over again more recently by blogs. Even though several media entities have managed to find victims, whistleblowers or investigators that were sidelined at the time, and interview them now, the amount of publishable detail they've been able to add to the stories so far is low. Interviewees have likely disclosed juicy stuff to the press, but the most 'tantalising' bits of it are unpublishable at this point for one legal reason or another.

Take the reasons why it feels like we know more about the Elm Guest House/Richmond Childrens home stuff than anything else:

Exaro have kept us informed of quite a lot of detail about where the police investigations have been going in the present era.
There was quite a lot of press coverage from the time the guesthouse was originally busted to look back on.
Someone who was investigating this stuff many years ago stuck their files online before the police took it away. The press can report on the existence of this material, and some details, but not the names obviously.

To say more about the Lambeth stuff I'll really need to know more about official investigations. Much like the North Wales stuff, this sounds like one where historical investigations and inquiries into both the original events and any coverups already happened. So any new inquiry will get dragged into investigating prior investigations as well as the police looking at whether there are enough blatant reasons why they'll at least have to go through the motions of looking at evidence/going after prosecutions again.

The crimewatch episode relating to the death of Bulic Forsythe appears to be on youtube, with annoying audio quality. I haven't had time to watch it yet, but the relevant piece seems to start by 1 minute 30 seconds in.



I'm certainly not holding my breath for more information about Lambeth abuse than has already existed on the net or mainstream media for a while. I still welcome the fresh press articles because they somewhat increase the pressure on people in various institutions to review this stuff again properly now, and not to drop investigations too blatantly.

 

[DaveCinzano]

It's all gone a bit Red Riding







Colin Wallace was the former British Army intelligence officer working in Northern Ireland on grey & black propaganda who blew the whistle on Kincora, Clockwork Orange and various psyops stuff going on in the 1970s, before being gaoled in the 80s following a conviction for manslaughter (subsequently quashed).

 

[Dillinger4]

I am reading Who Framed Colin Wallace by Paul Foot at the moment. I have just started the chapter on Kincora.

 

[DaveCinzano]

I am reading Who Framed Colin Wallace by Paul Foot at the moment. I have just started the chapter on Kincora.

The Fred Holroyd one is also worth a read if you are interested in such things.