Horizon: Should I eat Meat?

[editor]

Well given that modern humans have been on the planet for around 200,000 years and the article that you've linked to suggests that our ancestors were butchering meat 2.5 million years ago, I'd say you've proved his point for him, no?

Ah, so it was "modern humans" who crawled out of the swamp then, yes?

Want to try again?

 

[Spymaster]

can you explain the environmental damage of imported weed?

Transporting it. But we're considering social impact too aren't we?

And of course that's true, it's not the odd well-sourced steak that's the problem, it's the intensive factory farming where most of our meat is produced.

No argument from me on that.

 

[Spymaster]

Ah, so it was "modern humans" who crawled out of the swamp then, yes?

Want to try again?

Cor blimey talk about a back-pedal!!!

LOLOL!

Yeah ok, you win, "humans" have only been eating meat for 2.5 MILLION YEARS!

Well done!

 

[editor]

Cor blimey talk about a back-pedal!!!

LOLOL!

Yeah ok, you win, "humans" have only been eating meat for 2.5 MILLION YEARS!

Well done!

All of them? really?

 

[Spymaster]

All of them? really?

Do you really want to do this?

It might be fun to debate the possibilities of vegetarianism in Homo Heidelbergensis and Neanderthal communities but I'll leave the research to you!

Probably better just to accept that you blew your foot off with that link.

 

[editor]

Do you really want to do this?

It might be fun to debate the possibilities of vegetarianism in Homo Heidelbergensis and Neanderthal communities but I'll leave the research to you!

Probably better just to accept that you blew your foot off with that link.

My response to the original claim was completely correct and accurate. Now please shut the fuck up with your weird ranting because it's not making any kind of sense even when you employ capitals and BOLD WORDS. Thanks.

 

[Roadkill]

well, that causes offence, doesn't it. meat eaters are generally very pleased with being meat eaters and think they;'re really big and clever every time they fire up a barbeque. and most of us have friends who are meat eaters. so you learn not to bother banging on about it, cos the meat eaters get all offended or they start getting angry with you or throwing meat at you. if you cut off all ties with people who you like apart from the fact that they're sadistic towards animals you end up in those weird vegan only cults and that's even more unhealthy than putting up with your mates sick eating habits

I'm not sure if you're being facetious, but if not that's OTT. I don't think people are generally pleased with being meat-eaters; they just are. Let's face it, for most of western society - and non-western, for that matter - it's the default option, and a lot of people don't even think about it, still less think they're being 'big and clever' every time they fire up the barbecue or put some sausages under the grill. That's what you're up against; not hordes of fanatical flesh-addicts, but an overwhelming bulk of people who in many cases won't even have considered whether eating meat is a good thing to do or not. Problem is, if you try and change that by suggesting people's eating habits are 'sick' or accusing them of being 'sadistic towards animals,' they're very unlikely to change their minds and very likely to call you a self-righteous dick.

 

[Mr Retro]

If you are interested look it up! There's a large degree of variance depending where you go. Here's one that suggest the toll for an average British person is 11,000 animals in a lifetime

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/18/vegetarianism-save-planet-environment

So shellfish is an animal now? Quoting this bullshit does nobody any good in a debate like this.

 

[Spymaster]

My response to the original claim was completely correct and accurate.

Humans never "crawled out of the swamp", but as you know that was a figure of speech by which he meant "for a fucking, fucking, long time"!

So in what way was your response "completely correct" given that you linked to an article confirming that even Homo ergaster was butchering meat 2.5 million years ago????

Now please shut the fuck up with your weird ranting because it's not making any kind of sense even when you employ capitals and BOLD WORDS. Thanks.

By "weird ranting" I take it you mean my calmly pointing out that you're posting arrant nonsense?

 

[el-ahrairah]

So shellfish is an animal now? Quoting this bullshit does nobody any good in a debate like this.

shellfish have always been animals. according to science, that is.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

But all farmers kill animals that eat crops such as rabbits. And take up land that animals would otherwise inhabit. The moral lines on this are fuzzy for all of us, vegans included.

Silly argument. Vegans are not opposed to all animal deaths, merely deaths that are unnecessary. Killing animals to defend your crops may be legitimate (important qualifier - only when it is necessary and proportionate to do so). Similarly, killing animals as an unintended side effect of cultivating land may also be justified (with the same proviso). At any rate, given that the meat industry requires the cultivation of crops to use as animal feed, ending the meat industry would also result in the reduction of 'collateral' deaths of animals stemming from agriculture (as a side note, I'm a big fan of urban food growing - something which I think could mitigate these problems if there was a bigger uptake of it).

Furthermore, even if there are fuzzy moral boundaries here these should not be used disingenuously to distract from the core issues at stake i.e. the killing of tens of millions of animals for food etc in the UK every year and whether that is justified. For example, I could point out that we are all in someway implicated in killing humans because we pay taxes that have been used to fight wars. If I used this fact to question whether the prohibition against murder was sound I would correctly be dismissed for being facetious.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Whether or not humans have been eating meat for 2 million years or 2 days tells us nothing about whether we should continue to do so in the present day.

 

[Spymaster]

Whether or not humans have been eating meat for 2 million years or 2 days tells us nothing about whether we should continue to do so in the present day.

That's neither here nor there.

Editor has been trying to argue that humans are natural vegetarians against beesonthewhatnow 's assertion that we've been eating meat "since we crawled out of the swamp", figuratively speaking.

Editor linked to a National Geographic article which actually supported Bees' position, not his, then furiously tried to back-pedal when I pointed that out!

You can argue the "is-ought problem" with them but the fact remains that Bees was right and Ed was wrong.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Whether or not humans have been eating meat for 2 million years or 2 days tells us nothing about whether we should continue to do so in the present day.

It does however somewhat skewer the arguments against it that so often appear that run along the lines of "it's bad for you" and "unnatural" etc.

So, it just leaves the ethical arguments. And I have no problem whatsoever eating animals. I do have issues with the industry that has grown around it.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That's neither here nor there.

Editor has been trying to argue that humans are natural vegetarians against beesonthewhatnow 's assertion that we've been eating meat "since we crawled out of the swamp", figuratively speaking.

Editor linked to a National Geographic article which actually supported Bees' position, not his, then furiously tried to back-pedal when I pointed that out!

You can argue the "is-ought problem" with them but the fact remains that Bees was right and Ed was wrong.

I wasn't taking a position on who was right or wrong, merely pointing out that it doesn't matter one bit.

 

[Spymaster]

I wasn't taking a position on who was right or wrong, merely pointing out that it doesn't matter one bit.

And I'm not currently taking a position on whether or not it matters, merely pointing out that Bees was right and Editor wrong.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

It does however somewhat skewer the arguments against it that so often appear that run along the lines of "it's bad for you" and "unnatural" etc.

So, it just leaves the ethical arguments. And I have no problem whatsoever eating animals. I do have issues with the industry that has grown around it.

I'm sorry you have said

Birds eat insects. Sharks eat seals. Cats eat mice. Lions eat wildebeest. Humans eat meat. C'est la vie.

and

But I don't see how or why we're suddenly going to change thousands of years of well, what humans do.

Hence you were implying that meat eating is 'natural' and therefore 'ethical'.

 

[Spymaster]

Hence you were implying that meat eating is 'natural' and therefore 'ethical'.

Depends on how you want to define "natural" and argue the ethics but those are your words not his. At that point I don't think he'd mentioned either.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Pre- modern industrialised society, not eating meat would be to cut yourself off from an excellent source of protein - as well as very useful stuff like bone, furs and skins. Furthermore, animal husbandry and agriculture are intertwined and evolved over thousands of years in a symbiotic relationship (you have some land - introduce sheep or goats to eat the grass, then introduce pigs who dig up and eat all the roots, then introduce chickens who eat up the seeds - you now have a patch of well dug over, weed free soil, well fertilised with animal dung and perfect for crops - rotate and rinse and repeat).

The problem is we have a global population of 6 billion, genetically programmed to like fatty protein, with a predominantly meat eating culture (where it is widely and historically associated with being strength giving and denoting social status) being served by a vast, hyper-industrialised, cruel, unhealthy, environmentally toxic but ultimately unsustainable meat production process.

Calling meat eaters 'sadists' or 'murderers' or 'psychopaths' will get nowhere. The focus needs to be on promoting sustainable, less industrialised, more localised food production. But it also needs to make economic sense - most people will not - and cant afford to shell out for ethically sourced meat which costs three times its equivalent in Morrisons.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Depends on how you want to define "natural" and argue the ethics but those are your words not his. At that point I don't think he'd mentioned either.

Fair point, but he was sailing close enough to the naturalistic fallacy for my liking. I think its wrong and self-defeating when veggies/vegans do it as well.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I'm sorry you have said



and



Hence you were implying that meat eating is 'natural' and therefore 'ethical'.

OK, let me put it this way: I believe that eating meat is a perfectly natural, normal, healthy thing that humans have evolved to do. As such I have no ethical problem with it.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Calling meat eaters 'sadists' or 'murderers' or 'psychopaths' will get nowhere.

I agree but really who on earth does this? Seems like a bit of a straw man.

The focus needs to be on promoting sustainable, less industrialised, more localised food production. But it also needs to make economic sense - most people will not - and cant afford to shell out for ethically sourced meat which costs three times its equivalent in Morrisons.

A focus needs to be on that sure, but not the focus. The environmental ethic is distinct from (albeit connected to) the animal protection/rights ethic. Its not either/or.

 

[kittyP]

Yep, just checking. Sorry, shit question really.

I do eat meat but have cut down an enormous amount of late, so much nice veggie food to cook.

Sorry if this has already been covered but Organic dairy doesn't necessarily mean that the cows have been well treated.
I think it only means that they have been fed organic feed and not given vaccinations etc.
I think.

It's really difficult to find milk, in a city, when your skint, where you know the cow it came from is well treated.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

OK, let me put it this way: I believe that eating meat is a perfectly natural, normal, healthy thing that humans have evolved to do. As such I have no ethical problem with it.

I'm sorry but that won't do! Go read the wiki link

 

[ddraig]

Yes, of course you should eat meat.

Because it's delicious and humans have always eaten meat.

I don't eat meat all the time btw (and I include fish as meat); I try to keep it to 4x a week. However, a life without a bloody steak, lamb chops or chicken with crispy skin doesn't seem like a good life.

Did you think I was going to come round your house and force feed you half a cow?

I hope chorizo doesn't count as processed meat

The changes in the gut they expected to detect (through a fecal test) weren't as they expected and they attributed that to the high vegetable content of his diet. So. Eat some lettuce and tomato with your bacon

Do you still eat non-organic dairy?

tbh a pig could stand in front of me and deliver an impassioned speech on the joys of vegetarianism and I'd still eat it.

Birds eat insects. Sharks eat seals. Cats eat mice. Lions eat wildebeest. Humans eat meat. C'est la vie.

I really wouldn't bother. I think this is a 'vegetarians are better than meat eaters' thread.

It hasn't. Draig's being a touchy fucker, as ususal!

Your life must be very difficult.

Not at all.

Historically Jeff has been the ONLY vegetarian worth reading on these boards, though Fred seems also to be providing some level of debate, in contrast to the usual vacuousness delivered by yourself and other veggies on these threads.

Humans can get all the nutrition we need in a variety of ways, hence our success on every continent save antarctica.

Problem is that you can't win the argument that meat is wrong. Too many people are just fine with eating meat. But imo an argument centred on welfare, environment and sustainability can gain plenty of traction. But to do that you need to stop telling meat eaters they are doing an evil thing.

This is bullshit. The inuit are proof of that. Total speculative bullshit. On my phone, but i've linked to decent science on this before. Humans have eaten meat for as long as humans have been around. And we are flexible. That is our evolutionary heritage.

Eat meat YES!

I think we should all defer to the opinions of small children.

There is an argument that to eat cheese but not veal is ethically less sound than eating both.

But all farmers kill animals that eat crops such as rabbits. And take up land that animals would otherwise inhabit. The moral lines on this are fuzzy for all of us, vegans included.

So shellfish is an animal now? Quoting this bullshit does nobody any good in a debate like this.

And some more of bj's waffly posts couldn't be bothered with

 

[Spymaster]

And some more of bj's waffly posts couldn't be bothered with

Surprised you bothered at all for all the sense it made.

Response: Wibble.

 

[el-ahrairah]

meat-twat argument number 4: veggie-sanctimony! self-righteousness! oh noes!

this argument normally comes after you've kept quiet in the debate or refused to explain your moral decisions. after insisting that you explain why you don't eat meat, the meat-twat will attempt to portray you as some sort of taliban, one step away from shooting schoolgirls.*

response: fuck off, dickhead.

*e2a: remember, your morality is dangerous extremism. their morality is, naturally, infallible.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I'm sorry but that won't do! Go read the wiki link

Except, errr, it works perfectly for me. I am happy to eat meat. I am perfectly happy to kill and prepare an animal for eating and have done so. If my long term dream of ending up in the countryside ever comes off I plan to keep a bird of prey and regularly hunt for the purpose of acquiring food for my table. My conscience is and will be clear.

 

[el-ahrairah]

And some more of bj's waffly posts couldn't be bothered with

and i'm the only non-meat eater on this thread even remotely approaching being rude!

 

[Spymaster]

and i'm the only non-meat eater on this thread even remotely approaching being rude!

Aye, but nobody's taking you seriously.

Draigo quoting that lot says more about him than those he's quoted!