Griffin and BNP strategy

[The Black Hand]

Sunderland BNP Vote analysis.

2007 BNP 7653 total votes out of 72117 = vote share of 10.6134%

2008 BNP 7540 total votes out of 73799 = vote share of 10.2169%

Going down again, year on year. Though I must add - some wards show dramatic improvements and some reductions. It clearly is affected by the level of campaigning (or not) in each ward.

Do the anti fascists who number crunch want to share the workload around? I have put on line checkable stat analysis, it seems to me that we can save each other time and do something more useful if we pool the stat analysis. As I have begun to on this site. I may have already replicated work done, i don't know. We could then try to think about other work which could be done rather than flog ourselves...

 

[durruti02]

vote in north west up, and up the most in the last 5 years, taking into account number of candidates.

42,479 from 121 candidates in 2008
36,501 from 117 2007
23,000 from 53 2006
28,000 from 56 2004
22,000 from 44 2003

(2008 my reckoning from HnH .. all others UAF )

 

[The Black Hand]

vote in north west up, and up the most in the last 5 years, taking into account number of candidates.

42,479 from 121 candidates in 2008 = 351 votes per candidate
36,501 from 117 2007 = 311.97 votes per candidate
23,000 from 53 2006 = 433.96 votes per candidate
28,000 from 56 2004 = 500 votes per candidate
22,000 from 44 2003 = 500 votes per candidate

(2008 my reckoning from HnH .. all others UAF )

I have added some numbers above in italics.

Clearly the picture is NOT as clear as you portray.

High votes initially for 2 years, then significant decline for 2 years, then slight pick up cos they stabilised their vote and halted the dramatic decline.

 

[durruti02]

I have added some numbers above in italics.

Clearly the picture is NOT as clear as you portray.

High votes initially for 2 years, then significant decline for 2 years, then slight pick up cos they stabilised their vote and halted the dramatic decline.

attica NO one but you is saying things are clear .. i certainly am not .. it is only you on here who is trying to make the figures back your prejudiced myopic and wrong analysis instead of studying the figures to come up with an analysis.

I, and no others that i can see on here, is saying are saying the BNP are doing brilliantly - but it is clear they are continining to expand both in terms of area councillors and overall vote, and no amount of huffing and puffing and whining from you can change that

e.g. dramatic decline .. what idiocy .. i presume you mean when they expanded from 53 candidates to 117 and their sov went down???? well of course less people canvassing, less door to door etc etc etc been seen a million times ..

so please learn a little before you comment again on this whole process because your school boy errors are frankly embarressing and tbh disruptive to a proper analysis and hence response

p.s. so you are a minor party ( riven by splits and as being politically obnoxious got all the other parties and media attacking you ) what would you prefer ..a or b?

a) 42,479 votes from 121 candidates with 351 votes per candidate
b) 22,000 votes from 44 candidates with 500 votes per candidate

 

[The Black Hand]

Au contraire Durty2 - I never said things 'are clear'. I think you have 'prejeudiced and myopic' theory and practice. I ground my views in the real world, from grounded theory and practice, and proper analysis of voting trends. You as I said, have adopted an apriori 'bnp worship position' - for you the BNP are 'always on the up and are always doing well';

First off - you are off the mark with your analysis of the significance of the BNP. THeir 500 votes at their high point was NOT deserved, reflected no serious changes or a social base- but was based on racist hype, in the context of old prejeudices of a declining imperial power. All it did was encourage and recruit some of the apolitical conservative racist right who normally stumble along, who mouth 'coon' when they see black people.

Hence you (independent old leftists - iwca etc) lot went OTT about how well they were doing. This misreading left you subequently unable to acknowledge let alone explain their decline in 2006/7/8.

How would you describe their decline from a vote per candidate total of 500, down to 311.9 votes then. I called it a 'dramatic decline' because proportionately it is for a BNP supposedly 'on the up'!! It is a decline of 37.606% in their vote - significant in everybodies book except you lot for some reason.

That sort of vote crisis would provoke huge trauma in large parties - it is just that you lot and Griffin could help to portray the vote tumble as them 'spreading', and so help to NOT provoke a larger trauma for the bnp.

I long ago said, and first btw, that is is you lot who bluster when real results go against your perspective. No whining from me pal and it is you who huff and puff when confronted by ideas which do not fit your preconceived notions of ultra left politics.

What is seriously 'embarrassing' is being unable to spell embarrassing correctly, you are whinging, whinging, huffing and making school boy errors just like you accuse me of doing.

What is pathetic is the ultra left being unable to engage with serious Marxist analysis.

As for your ps question - do you think that perhaps it is possible that they have only recruited elements already existing with conservative imperial Britain, so that their 'growth' has been at the expense of the social constituencies they would need to grow any further?

So that they have recruited 'old stylee racists' - which seems probable given their coverage in the media. That they have recruited not because of, but in spite of these politics? They have got bigger organisationally, but at the expense of a large import into 'the general public'. Certainly it is a reading I think is worth exploring.

 

[TremulousTetra]

have just noticed round my area, a large increase in the number of graffiti swastikas with the word Nazi underneath, since the BNP stood. I must go out and lecture these people about how it is politically incorrect to label fascists Nazi.

 

[Meltingpot]

have just noticed round my area, a large increase in the number of graffiti swastikas with the word Nazi underneath, since the BNP stood. I must go out and lecture these people about how it is politically incorrect to label fascists Nazi.

Well, Nazis were fascists but not all fascists were Nazis (Mussolini wasn't, for instance). Officially I don't believe the BNP allows overt Nazis (or at least members of the N9S) to join any more but I suspect that rule is quietly flouted.

 

[durruti02]

I ground my views in the real world, from grounded theory and practice, and proper analysis of voting trends. You as I said, have adopted an apriori 'bnp worship position' - for you the BNP are 'always on the up and are always doing well';

you are too then a liar and a smear artist - you have already admitteded you were, disgracefully, NOT working from the stats, were NOT using the actual election results, as i and others have been,

and then your smear artist prejudice comes in, that assumes comment on the dangerous reality of a nationally increasing vote/spread for the scum of the BNP is some sort of 'bnp worship' .. sad

and this is 'autonomous marxism' LOL

and you think "What is seriously 'embarrassing' is being unable to spell embarrassing correctly" FFS

 

[durruti02]

Durrito, I wrote this a couple of days ago in response to one of your posts, but can't find it now. I think you ask me a question like, "what are you going to do, ask the most progressive people opposed to new Labour to vote new Labour"?

1) Sure why not? I don't understand your logic. It is perfectly possible for the progressive members of the working class to be against new Labour, whilst being against fascism as even worse. The majority accept, that even where you have a openly new Labour candidate, it is more progressive to vote for the new Labour candidate, than to vote for a fascist who will only make things even worse, don't they? isn't it a bit elitist to say working-class people don't understand it is more progressive to vote new labour than vote fascist?

2) However, in my area 1300 voted for Labour, and 800 voted for the fascist.

3) The Labour candidate was old the Labour through and through, lives in the area, and is not a bad counciler and I wouldn't say he was a careerist. The fascist doesn't live in the area, they have never done anything in the area. Everything you say about building a relationship with the working class, you know like doing grassroots work etc is, it's the opposite way round. The Labour councillor does stuff, within the confines of the capitalist system, and the fascist does fuck all. How can you say the fascist vote, is a vote against new Labour neoliberalism and councillors doing nothing in an old Labour fashion, when my local experience doesn't back up your argument? (I'm going to do some research, on the vote for the Conservatives etc historically. And try and analyse where the boat is coming from.)

4) Also, are you really trying to tell me the 800 are more progressive ("the most progressive hate new Labour") than the 1300.

btw, there are hardly any immigrants in my ward.

5) Oh yes, another example which rebuts your analysis. two wards away from me my friend who used to be an SW member was a candidate for Respect renewal. Her, and several other SW members have virtually all left SW. They are involved with many other politicals. They have also introduced many members of the community to political struggle. They have been highly active on the streets virtually every week for the last, well since before the Iraq war. This is a multi ethnic area, with a high Moslem percentage. You have met me, and you know when I say if you met these 4 ex-SW members you would be very impressed with their working class and activist credentials, you can guess what they are like. The Labour councillor she ran against is white, male, new Labour, deputy leader of City Council. Basically they're doing everything you say they should, Respect in a Muslim area, and they still got less votes than the Tory party. LP 1735 CON 673, RR 502. in my area Bnp 800 v 1300.

6) Now the thing is working class people in my area are concerned about the rise of the fascist vote, but are not agreed about the kind of manifesto you would apply. Now what you and butchers aka napoleon seem to be saying, is that Socialist should ignore this wish to oppose fascism, whilst not sharing a political perspective. What I need to know is, why do we HAVE TO address concerns about the number of immigrants, and have NOT TO address concerns about fascism on a united front basisi?

hi rmp ..sorry for delay

1) ok yes your logic is fine but where does it get you? ok we want to do away with the BNP .. so where does it come from? neo liberalism as a combination of reaction and false radicalism .. so the attck HAS to be on neo liberlaism surely??

3) sure the lab guy may be ok .. but most people vote on national issues and perceptions .. local candidates unless exceptional almost always get blown away by the bigger picture

2) that is a BIG BNP vote mate ..

4) i nor anyone else on here have not said it is progressive to vote BNP .. there WILL be radical elements in the mix though - complaint about loss of control power etc - but generally it is a frustrated reactionary shout - the issue is that WE should be getting / directing that anger

5) Respects large votes in elections have been afaik almost entirely directed by community / mosque leaders .. i can only assume that in this ward this support was NOT forthcoming for whatever reason. tbh i am more interested in RR where like Bristol i understand they are standing simply on a socialist community platform

6) no i do NOT say we should not be concerned .. exactly the opposite .. where i disagree is that i say to destroy an illness we must target the cause NOT the symptom .. so yes of course we campaign AGAINST the bnp but no more in fact LESS than we must campignn against the issues that create them - housing, commmunity issues, asb, powerlessness, etc etc to say to people that labour and elections is any solution will further alienate and encourage cycnicism


out of interest what was the anti bnp campign like?

 

[TremulousTetra]

hi rmp ..sorry for delay

1) ok yes your logic is fine but where does it get you? ok we want to do away with the BNP .. so where does it come from? neo liberalism as a combination of reaction and false radicalism .. so the attck HAS to be on neo liberlaism surely??

3) sure the lab guy may be ok .. but most people vote on national issues and perceptions .. local candidates unless exceptional almost always get blown away by the bigger picture

2) that is a BIG BNP vote mate ..

4) i nor anyone else on here have not said it is progressive to vote BNP .. there WILL be radical elements in the mix though - complaint about loss of control power etc - but generally it is a frustrated reactionary shout - the issue is that WE should be getting / directing that anger

5) Respects large votes in elections have been afaik almost entirely directed by community / mosque leaders .. i can only assume that in this ward this support was NOT forthcoming for whatever reason. tbh i am more interested in RR where like Bristol i understand they are standing simply on a socialist community platform

6) no i do NOT say we should not be concerned .. exactly the opposite .. where i disagree is that i say to destroy an illness we must target the cause NOT the symptom .. so yes of course we campaign AGAINST the bnp but no more in fact LESS than we must campignn against the issues that create them - housing, commmunity issues, asb, powerlessness, etc etc to say to people that labour and elections is any solution will further alienate and encourage cycnicism


out of interest what was the anti bnp campign like?

You can believe what you want about the Respect candidate and that old Labour candidate, but what I was trying to get across to you was, these candidates are following exactly the kind of principles you are advocating as a method to building a proper movement. Especially the Respect candidate, has been completely rooted in the area for at least five years, on the streets every week virtually, with broad alliance of politicals and non-politicals, raising issues pertinent to the local community (local and national issues). The BNP got a "big vote " and have done absolutely bugger all to get on that vote. My simple point is, it is not because "socialists" don'tget involved in issues that people are interested in that the left is so small, not winning elections, not building rank-and-file organisation. It is far more complicated than that. The vote for the fascists is much simpler, all the main political parties, the media, and some of the left are acting as recruiting sergeants,whilst the BNP are doing everything they can to conceal their Fascism.

Fascism is not a product of neoliberalism. Fascism exist in the 1930s. Fascism will always exist as long as there is capitalism. Fascist supporters have never been worn away away from Fascism by appeasing fascist demands, you turn them away from the movement of despair, by creating a movement of hope. And it is this key point where I think you have got argument completely the wrong way round, you don't start by concentrating on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist, you build that movement of hope from the most progressive elements in society. Defending the NHS in the here in now, defending council housing here in now, and defending bourgeois democracy from Fascism, is part of building that movement.

"so yes of course we campaign AGAINST the bnp". How?

PS. The anti-BNP campaign was non-existent.

 

[durruti02]

You can believe what you want about the Respect candidate and that old Labour candidate, but what I was trying to get across to you was, these candidates are following exactly the kind of principles you are advocating as a method to building a proper movement. Especially the Respect candidate, has been completely rooted in the area for at least five years, on the streets every week virtually, with broad alliance of politicals and non-politicals, raising issues pertinent to the local community (local and national issues). The BNP got a "big vote " and have done absolutely bugger all to get on that vote. My simple point is, it is not because "socialists" don'tget involved in issues that people are interested in that the left is so small, not winning elections, not building rank-and-file organisation. It is far more complicated than that. The vote for the fascists is much simpler, all the main political parties, the media, and some of the left are acting as recruiting sergeants,whilst the BNP are doing everything they can to conceal their Fascism.

Fascism is not a product of neoliberalism. Fascism exist in the 1930s. Fascism will always exist as long as there is capitalism. Fascist supporters have never been worn away away from Fascism by appeasing fascist demands, you turn them away from the movement of despair, by creating a movement of hope. And it is this key point where I think you have got argument completely the wrong way round, you don't start by concentrating on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist, you build that movement of hope from the most progressive elements in society. Defending the NHS in the here in now, defending council housing here in now, and defending bourgeois democracy from Fascism, is part of building that movement.

"so yes of course we campaign AGAINST the bnp". How?

PS. The anti-BNP campaign was non-existent.

HI rmp i think you are getting what i say entirely the wrong way around. I do not think we should "concentrat[e] on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist" .. where do i say that?? what i say is that the movement of people toward the bnp exposes what the left have forgotten .. the fundamental importance and need of community, unambiguous support for the w/c wherever they are, whatever they think, whatever culture they come from, and the need to attack those in power.

Yes i agree we need to be positive and that is what i do in my daily political activity .. but as i said before if you are NOT honest about what neo liberalism is doing on all levels, as e.g. the left are not re immigration, the rest of what you say will be and is being ignored.

specifically on your post i appreciate what you say re the Respect candidate .. but you have ignored my ppoint that Respect votes have ALWAYS been down to community leader support. I am sure they did do a very good campaign .. i can also guarantee they concentrated on muslim support. Why did they not stand in teh same seat as the BNP did????

i think you also ignored my point that there WILL be good labour candidates but they will often get blown aways by their label

yes we agree that fascism is a product of capitalism .. capitalism in crisis as a threat and possibility of the new order, as a division in the w/c and as a distraction. It is both conservative and reactionary AND anti capitalist in a right wing sense.

BUT Anti fascism can NOT make a 'movement of hope' ( which we all agree we need) when all it CAN do, as you say, is to defend "bourgeois democracy" .. and that fundamentally means defending the status quo .. means defending the very conditions that ferment fascism in the first place.

No the BNP are a distraction pure and simple .. their interest to me is that they illustrate how the left have lost contact almost entirely with the w/c and that they now mimic dishonestly some of the tactics which the left should be using.

WE allow a new nastier Tory govt in at our peril .. we made the same mistake in 79 .. are we to repeat it??

 

[durruti02]

"so yes of course we campaign AGAINST the bnp". How?

PS. The anti-BNP campaign was non-existent.

How?? .. by creating a "a movement of hope"


no campaign?? i am suprised .. i though mancs/lancs was a hot bed of UAF etc??

 

[Random]

Fascism is not a product of neoliberalism. Fascism exist in the 1930s. Fascism will always exist as long as there is capitalism....Defending the NHS in the here in now, defending council housing here in now, and defending bourgeois democracy from Fascism, is part of building that movement.

You're stuck in the past, RMP3. What we're dealing here is not 'fascism' but rather a modern development partly descended from it - European extreme nationalism. These parties exist within the system, rather than against it, and feed off modern concerns about the end of the welfare and jobs that we've come to have since WW2. As such, supporting the current neo-liberlal parties because you think they want to 'smash bourgeois democracy' just increases the space for the nationalists.

 

[LLETSA]

You're stuck in the past, RMP3. What we're dealing here is not 'fascism' but rather a modern development partly descended from it - European extreme nationalism. These parties exist within the system, rather than against it, and feed off modern concerns about the end of the welfare and jobs that we've come to have since WW2. As such, supporting the current neo-liberlal parties because you think they want to 'smash bourgeois democracy' just increases the space for the nationalists.

Even if they did want to do it, it's beyond the power of even the strongest 'Euronationalist' party to smash bourgeois democracy.

The left's problem is that it still lives in an era of mass revolutionary movements and fascist backlash (or the potential for them.) Neither are any longer possible.

 

[TremulousTetra]

You're stuck in the past, RMP3. What we're dealing here is not 'fascism' but rather a modern development partly descended from it - European extreme nationalism. These parties exist within the system, rather than against it, and feed off modern concerns about the end of the welfare and jobs that we've come to have since WW2. As such, supporting the current neo-liberlal parties because you think they want to 'smash bourgeois democracy' just increases the space for the nationalists.

so you think a proposal to nationalise all industries with more than 80 employees doesn't challenge the current status quo? you think the claim to be "classless", against organised labour and big business does not reflect the ideology of the National Socialists, and indeed griffins claim to be a true National Socialist is a fabrication?

for me to properly understand what you're explaining to me, you need to explain a couple of things. By the system, do you mean the capitalist system of the class system? For it could be argued Hitler challenged neither after 1935, whilst National Socialism challenged both prior to 1935. how does the Nazi party is feeding off "modern concerns" of its time, differ to what the bnp are doing today?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Even if they did want to do it, it's beyond the power of even the strongest 'Euronationalist' party to smash bourgeois democracy.

there are no circumstances under which the capitalists would love to see the powers of organised workers reduced even further? economic depression is no longer possible?

do you think they reduction of civil liberties under both Conservative and Labour governments a illusion?

The left's problem is that it still lives in an era of mass revolutionary movements and fascist backlash (or the potential for them.) Neither are any longer possible.

what is your position? fukuyamas, "we are at the end of history"? 10,000 years of experience of class society is now threw out of the window?

that's a pretty bold statement. Do you have any logic to back that argument up?

 

[TremulousTetra]

HI rmp i think you are getting what i say entirely the wrong way around. I do not think we should "concentrat[e] on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist" .. where do i say that?? what i say is that the movement of people toward the bnp exposes what the left have forgotten .. the fundamental importance and need of community, unambiguous support for the w/c wherever they are, whatever they think, whatever culture they come from, and the need to attack those in power.

Yes i agree we need to be positive and that is what i do in my daily political activity .. but as i said before if you are NOT honest about what neo liberalism is doing on all levels, as e.g. the left are not re immigration, the rest of what you say will be and is being ignored.

specifically on your post i appreciate what you say re the Respect candidate .. but you have ignored my ppoint that Respect votes have ALWAYS been down to community leader support. I am sure they did do a very good campaign .. i can also guarantee they concentrated on muslim support. Why did they not stand in teh same seat as the BNP did????

i think you also ignored my point that there WILL be good labour candidates but they will often get blown aways by their label

yes we agree that fascism is a product of capitalism .. capitalism in crisis as a threat and possibility of the new order, as a division in the w/c and as a distraction. It is both conservative and reactionary AND anti capitalist in a right wing sense.

BUT Anti fascism can NOT make a 'movement of hope' ( which we all agree we need) when all it CAN do, as you say, is to defend "bourgeois democracy" .. and that fundamentally means defending the status quo .. means defending the very conditions that ferment fascism in the first place.

No the BNP are a distraction pure and simple .. their interest to me is that they illustrate how the left have lost contact almost entirely with the w/c and that they now mimic dishonestly some of the tactics which the left should be using.

WE allow a new nastier Tory govt in at our peril .. we made the same mistake in 79 .. are we to repeat it??

You concentrate on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist, when you concentrate on immigration, in the WAY you do. Time and time and time and time again. And whilst I support the working class whatever they think, I do not support whatever they think. If they think eg gays should be shot, I won't support that, etc.

And the idea that the fascists mimicking the left it's something new, is wrong. Why do you think the National Socialist party had such a name. In my opinion you don't seem to understand why fascism is described as a middle-class ideology. Sure, numerical analysis of the Nazi party would back up that label, but it is not absolutely essential. It is the nature of the ideology, opposed to big business and organised labour, which makes it middle-class. It is honestly opposed to both, because it is jealous of and suffers from both. That's why it can be nationalist,,,, and Socialist.

I did ignore your point about respect votes always being based upon community leader support, because that viewpoint was clearly ignorant of the facts where I live. It was clearly ignorant of the Moslem community where I live. It was clearly ignorant of the politicals involved in the respect campaign where I live. You have to be clear here, these are people who have left SW for community-based politics. These people have moved away from my style of politics, to your style of politics. These are people I disagree with politically, but I would still say in many ways these people are amongst the best politicals I've ever met. And this is where I fundamentally disagree with you. These people have moved to your style of politics, and they are still failing. The BNP does not imply your style of politics in my area, and they are succeeding. You come across as seeming to think the whole problem is socialists,,,, Socialists not fighting in the right fight. If only socialists had pursued, or would pursue, the right strategy everything would be fine. That is not the case. The UK left has fell foul of far bigger forces than wrong strategy.

Defending the local hospital cannot build a revolution of hope. Fighting for defend wages cannot build a revolution of hope. Fighting defend Council housing cannot build a revolution of hope. And defending what you've got, from fascism that would make it worse, cannot build a revolution of hope. But winning victories in all those areas, CAN begin to build such a movement.

At the end of the day and the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of the working class. None of us revolutionaries can do it for them. The history of all hitherto existing society, is a history of class struggle. Classes have always struggled, and have only ever achieved one of two ends, social revolution of the common ruin of the contending classes. At the end of the day I believe the working class has two choices socialism or barbarism. We can argue for the former, but only they can deliver it.

 

[LLETSA]

there are no circumstances under which the capitalists would love to see the powers of organised workers reduced even further? economic depression is no longer possible?

do you think they reduction of civil liberties under both Conservative and Labour governments a illusion?

what is your position? fukuyamas, "we are at the end of history"? 10,000 years of experience of class society is now threw out of the window?

that's a pretty bold statement. Do you have any logic to back that argument up?

Haven't you noticed that the power of organised workers has been steadily reduced right across the western world for the past generation without even a whiff of fascism?

What has the erosion of civil liberties by governments of the mainstream parties got to do with the possibility of fascism?

While class society is very much still with us, it by no means follows that the politics of the last century are destined to continue pretty much unaltered. Many of the conditions that gave rise to mass revolutionary movements and fascist reaction are now absent. Amazing how the Fukuyama word surfaces every time somebody points out that we are no longer living in the 1930s or 1970s.

 

[LLETSA]

so you think a proposal to nationalise all industries with more than 80 employees doesn't challenge the current status quo? you think the claim to be "classless", against organised labour and big business does not reflect the ideology of the National Socialists, and indeed griffins claim to be a true National Socialist is a fabrication?

for me to properly understand what you're explaining to me, you need to explain a couple of things. By the system, do you mean the capitalist system of the class system? For it could be argued Hitler challenged neither after 1935, whilst National Socialism challenged both prior to 1935. how does the Nazi party is feeding off "modern concerns" of its time, differ to what the bnp are doing today?

The main difference is that, unlike the Nazis, the BNP will never come to power. And they know it.

 

[durruti02]

You concentrate on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist, when you concentrate on immigration, in the WAY you do. Time and time and time and time again. And whilst I support the working class whatever they think, I do not support whatever they think. If they think eg gays should be shot, I won't support that, etc.

And the idea that the fascists mimicking the left it's something new, is wrong. Why do you think the National Socialist party had such a name. In my opinion you don't seem to understand why fascism is described as a middle-class ideology. Sure, numerical analysis of the Nazi party would back up that label, but it is not absolutely essential. It is the nature of the ideology, opposed to big business and organised labour, which makes it middle-class. It is honestly opposed to both, because it is jealous of and suffers from both. That's why it can be nationalist,,,, and Socialist.

I did ignore your point about respect votes always being based upon community leader support, because that viewpoint was clearly ignorant of the facts where I live. It was clearly ignorant of the Moslem community where I live. It was clearly ignorant of the politicals involved in the respect campaign where I live. You have to be clear here, these are people who have left SW for community-based politics. These people have moved away from my style of politics, to your style of politics. These are people I disagree with politically, but I would still say in many ways these people are amongst the best politicals I've ever met. And this is where I fundamentally disagree with you. These people have moved to your style of politics, and they are still failing. The BNP does not imply your style of politics in my area, and they are succeeding. You come across as seeming to think the whole problem is socialists,,,, Socialists not fighting in the right fight. If only socialists had pursued, or would pursue, the right strategy everything would be fine. That is not the case. The UK left has fell foul of far bigger forces than wrong strategy.

Defending the local hospital cannot build a revolution of hope. Fighting for defend wages cannot build a revolution of hope. Fighting defend Council housing cannot build a revolution of hope. And defending what you've got, from fascism that would make it worse, cannot build a revolution of hope. But winning victories in all those areas, CAN begin to build such a movement.

At the end of the day and the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of the working class. None of us revolutionaries can do it for them. The history of all hitherto existing society, is a history of class struggle. Classes have always struggled, and have only ever achieved one of two ends, social revolution of the common ruin of the contending classes. At the end of the day I believe the working class has two choices socialism or barbarism. We can argue for the former, but only they can deliver it.

we'll have to disagree about the firstst stuff cos i just do not recognize your criticism .. when i would raise immigration it would specifically be to attack the idea that immigrants are to blame or that race is an issue .. which is what the BNP claim .. but to show how wasp bosses are using us all and only by unity can we succeed .. but to ignore the subject absolutely as the sw do is insane

yes i accept that fascism has always used radicalism even though it is as you say a m/c ideology .. but to ignore the change of tactics from the fasc from street demos from the 4ts thru to the 9ts to the door to door srategy fo now is imho very nieve .. yes it is other material circumstances that have been fundamental but without this change i am not sure they would have gained

i am at a loss to entitely comment on where you live for obvious reasons and i respect what you say .. i am not sure HOW i am to NOT be ignorent of the details unless you supply them! but i think you have to an extent ignored my possible explanations .. i also suspect that maybe there is MORE bnp activity than you realise .. this has been reported from other areas .. that is part of their change ... they have gone off the radar compared to the old street fascism

 

[d.a.s.h]

The main difference is that, unlike the Nazis, the BNP will never come to power. And they know it.

Maybe the more intelligent and lucid members have some acceptance of that, in that they see the task in the here and now as establishing a durable base which can take advantage of some crisis decades in the future (peak oil seems to be of some interest to them).

But there are plenty of loons on the net talking about 'When we have a BNP government'. Fringe political groups always attract more than their share of people who bend perceptions of reality to fit in with personal fantasies of doing mighty deeds, sorting out those they don't like and so on.

 

[audiotech]

The main difference is that, unlike the Nazis, the BNP will never come to power. And they know it.

Some are predicting that the BNP will hold the balance of power in some local councils though - Stoke for example.

Stoke-on-Trent used to be a Labour stronghold, but now it has nine BNP councillors. Some fear that the far-right party could be running the town hall by 2011. Nearly 50% of Bentilee's residents don't work; most, like Oldcroft, are "on the sick", as locals say. He has a visibly painful back complaint, but is more concerned about housing. His 24-year-old daughter lives at home and is still waiting for a council house. Immigrants, he claims, always seem to get set up with houses. "You can't park your car and there are arguments here and arguments there. We'll soon be like Bradford. People have got to listen to our views."

This despite:

Like the other large estates that have become far-right strongholds in Stoke, Bentilee residents are overwhelmingly white. Census records show just 1.9% of the population is from black and ethnic minority communities.

And:

One of their [BNP] proposals is cutting funding to the Citizens Advice Bureau - an organisation that helps the most in need across Stoke-on-Trent. To date I haven't heard one policy from the BNP that will improve the lives of ordinary people.

And still they prosper?

Here's a way to maybe reduce their influence?

If there was a serious, union-based alternative to Labour with roots in the community that would see BNP support fall away quite dramatically.

The warning is that it is a step "into the darkness" and those who will suffer will be the people of Stoke-on-Trent."

Source.

 

[TremulousTetra]

The main difference is that, unlike the Nazis, the BNP will never come to power. And they know it.

that's what they said about Hitler.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Haven't you noticed that the power of organised workers has been steadily reduced right across the western world for the past generation without even a whiff of fascism?

What has the erosion of civil liberties by governments of the mainstream parties got to do with the possibility of fascism?

While class society is very much still with us, it by no means follows that the politics of the last century are destined to continue pretty much unaltered. Many of the conditions that gave rise to mass revolutionary movements and fascist reaction are now absent. Amazing how the Fukuyama word surfaces every time somebody points out that we are no longer living in the 1930s or 1970s.

whilst you accept class society remains with us, you need to explain 1. why class struggle will cease, or 2. what other forms class struggle will take, for your comments to make any sense.

just out of interest, can you think of any society that has ever existed where those who control the means of production, haven't controlled society?

 

[LLETSA]

Some are predicting that the BNP will hold the balance of power in some local councils though - Stoke for example.

Controlling Stoke council is hardly the Fourth Reich, however.

 

[LLETSA]

that's what they said about Hitler.

They did indeed. In a vastly different time and context.

Furthermore, Griffin is not Hitler.

This is not the threat the BNP represents.

 

[LLETSA]

whilst you accept class society remains with us, you need to explain 1. why class struggle will cease, or 2. what other forms class struggle will take, for your comments to make any sense.

just out of interest, can you think of any society that has ever existed where those who control the means of production, haven't controlled society?

Who said anything about class struggle ceasing? I didn't. As long as class society exists how can there not be class struggle? We should not assume that class struggle necessarily leads anywhere though. At the moment it looks likely that, as long as capitalism continues to function it will simply go on, more intense at some times and in some places than in others, without leading to revolution.

 

[audiotech]

Controlling Stoke council is hardly the Fourth Reich, however.

So far it is only you who has brought up the subject of a "Fourth Reich". You might want to elaborate on the however, however?

 

[The39thStep]

I get the feeling that whatever Griffins strategy for many on here the response is always the same:

A musical event
Call them fascist or Nazis
Vote anyone but the BNP
No platform

Throw in a few quotes from Trotsky, the Spanish Civil war and Cable Street.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Who said anything about class struggle ceasing? I didn't. As long as class society exists how can there not be class struggle? We should not assume that class struggle necessarily leads anywhere though. At the moment it looks likely that, as long as capitalism continues to function it will simply go on, more intense at some times and in some places than in others, without leading to revolution.

why didn't you just say that in the first place? A perfectly reasonable position, I agree with.


I cannot see a revolution immanent either, but then again that's is what Lenin said in 1916.

so what happens when capitalism ceases to function, when the ruling class can no longer rule in the same way, and the working class are no longer prepared to be ruled in the same way? you believe there could be a revolution then?