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Greek Parliamentary Election

The quote from BtF is quite true, but surely you are not claiming that the historically universal tendancy for modern capitalist societies to fragment into Far Left and Right , away from the "mainstream political centre" during a period of massive social upheaval is a particularly novel insight ?

Well what the 'novel insight' from BTF is and the point being made, is the point about us being in an era of the drift rather than the era of the putsch - i.e. in contemporary times, and in contrast to the 20th century, we are not seeing so much a move away from the 'mainstream politcal centre' as you put it, but the gradual movement of the 'mainstream political centre' itself to the right

I should have quoted the wider quote from BTF from where that sentence was taken which makes it clearer as to what the difference between now and then is seen to be, which is somewhat more nuanced than the crude reductionist version that you paraphrased in your post above

BTF said:
For, as the experience of both Austria and Italy has demonstrated, the Far Right has risen, albeit to be junior partners in government. So the real potency of the fascist renaissance across Europe is far better judged by how easily its appearance on a national stage can first panic, and then stampede, an erstwhile political centre to the right. It is also worth noting that a fascist organisation does not have to be large to do this. Gone is the need for a private army, as ‘strength on the street’ is no longer obligatory. Unlike its 1930s forbears, what characterises fascism today is not the ‘putsch’ but what anti-fascists have referred to as ‘the drift’.
 
Well what the 'novel insight' from BTF is and the point being made, is the point about us being in an era of the drift rather than the era of the putsch - i.e. in contemporary times, and in contrast to the 20th century, we are not seeing so much a move away from the 'mainstream politcal centre' as you put it, but the gradual movement of the 'mainstream political centre' itself to the right

I should have quoted the wider quote from BTF from where that sentence was taken which makes it clearer as to what the difference between now and then is seen to be, which is somewhat more nuanced than the crude reductionist version that you paraphrased in your post above

It is undoubtedly the case that the rising vote for the European Far Right (in its electoral "respectable guize") during the long period of prosperity up to the 2008 Crash, based as it was mainly on anti immigrant sentiment, but also on the effects of globalisation on the skilled and unskilled working class, did indeed produce a nominal "drift" by the political centre to accomodate its rhetoric on immigration particularly - but in reality had very little impact on policy by the political parties of the political centre. Look at Italy , with the Northern League , with its deep historical roots to fascism - even to the Fascist "Salo Republic", actually In the coalition government for years - but what real impact did it have on Italian immigration policy ? Not much I'd say.

Since the 2008 Crash however, as the austerity has really started to bite, politics in France, Spain, Greece etc has certainly fragmented and moved away from the centre - but to the socialist Left as well as the Far Right and Fascist Far Right. In Greece , the country farthest along the road to economic and political meltdown however , far from your claim that :

"Gone is the need for a private army, as ‘strength on the street’ is no longer obligatory. Unlike its 1930s forbears, what characterises fascism today is not the ‘putsch’ but what anti-fascists have referred to as ‘the drift’."

You are completely and utterly wrong....The harsh and quite obvious reality is that the state and capitalist class in this stage of social crisis still do indeed need the special physical and ideological forces of street fascism (heavily underpinned by state forces of course - just as in Italy in the early 20's and Germany in the late 20's and early 30's). Greece today far more resembles the Weimar Republic than a situation of "drift by the Centre" to the right. The Btf perspective was developed towards the end of the long neo Liberal boom, with bourgeois political centre politics in complete ascendancy pretty much everwhere, and the Socialist Left busted. . The "slow drift to the right by the Centre" , "with no role for street fascism" proposition may hold some water up to the capitalist crash of 2008, but today as the crisis deepens, of course the bourgeois parties of the centre will court the Far Right voters with anti immigrant and xenophobic policies, but as the crisis really impacts on countries like Italy, PortugaL, and France , it will once again be also an opportunity for the fascist Right and the socialist Left and revolutionery Left to grow at breakneck speed, as they have done in Greece. The State assisted fascist putsch - or military takeover with fascist "destabilisation assistance to justify it, has certainly not had its day quite yet.

One thing Is quite clear, as the crisis deepens in each country , the political centre fragments and lots of voters go to the Far Right, but lots also go to the Socialist Left and Far Left (underpinned by marxist philosophy and analysis) -- they certainly don't go to vote for some localist oriented non socialist organisation without a national , and internationalist, transformational perpective. The BtF analysis , with some real resonance in the peculiar "total hegemony of the neo Libera political centre" of the 1990's and up to 2008, has now been left far behind by the actual events on the ground.
 
The harsh and quite obvious reality is that the state and capitalist class in this stage of social crisis still do indeed need the special physical and ideological forces of street fascism

what do they need them for?

To counter a threat from progressive revolutionary politics, as has historically been the case?

what threat?

this is where you are 'completely and utterly wrong'

The far right is gaining prominence, not in response to a threat to the established order from the left but in large part due to the absence of such a threat.
 
what do they need them for?

To counter a threat from progressive revolutionary politics, as has historically been the case?

what threat?

this is where you are 'completely and utterly wrong'

The far right is gaining prominence, not in response to a threat to the established order from the left but in large part due to the absence of such a threat.


Errr...This is a thread on the Greek crisis , love detective,( not on the still barren politics of 2012 Britain)........those actually fighting the Greek austerity agenda of the capitalist class , the Radical Left of Syriza, got nearly 27% of the popular vote , with the KKE an additional 4.5%. Factories have been occupied, people are opposing the cutting off of power to homes , and evictions from homes, , popular assemblies are taking over basic functions in towns all over Greece. The Greek Nazis got only 7% of the popular vote, but are receiving massive support from policemen and no doubt other organs of the state, and are trying to dominate the streets in a real parody of late 1920's Weimar.

What is your problem in moving from the still sterile logjammed current politics of the UK to the fast-changing politics of a state in deep social/economic crisis. In Greece of course the capitalist class need the fascist street gangs to oppose the Left anti austerity mobilizations and massive trades union resistance to the austerity measures..(not just " the revolutionery Left", as you suggest), as they will wherever the same level of social crisis develops - if only to justify a military takeover to "restore order".

Your politics and highly selective viewpoint is simply trapped in the time specific particularities of the collapse of the Left in the UK and much of Europe during the temporary triumphant era of neo Liberalism from the 1980's until the 2008 Crash. But , post Crash, in the era of growing austerity, the radical Socialist Left is on its way back.. in states where the crisis is deepening fastest.. Just look at the realities rather than your theory. Just look at the recent French Presidential election - a massive leap in support for both reformist and radical (reformist) Left politics. Of course a big leap in Far Right votes too - but that is to be expected.

It is the Centre of politics that is splintering now, not the whole political structure moving wholesale to the Right as your rigidly adhered to pre 2008 Crash prediction proposed. There is something distinctly "Trotskyist" in your adherence to a "political path prediction" which has turned out to be wrong. As was often said about the orthodox Trots post 1945, " they were like someone trying to navigate the London Underground using a map of the Paris Metro". The analysis of "Filling the Vacuum" has in key aspects, now been invalidated by the realities imposed by the post 2008 world Capitalist Crisis. Nothing wrong with that... the point is to rethink and adapt. Rejoin the Socialist Left, love detective, before its too late , mate.
 
the thread is about Greece yes, our discussion over the last few posts has been about the growth of the far right in europe (including UK), so it's somewhat disingenuous to narrow it back down to Greece now given the far wider context of the previous few posts

what does the 19th century socialist left have to offer the 21st century working class though? clearly nothing at present - rethink & adapt is good advice indeed
 
The Greek crisis may have recently dropped off this board as a "current topic" but if this Der Spiegel article is true:


"The International Monetary Fund will stop paying further rescue aid to Greece, making the country’s insolvency in September more likely, the Der Spiegel magazine said. citing unidentified European Union officials.
While a review of Greece’s progress in meeting terms of its rescue is unfinished, it is “already clear” to the reviewing body of the IMF, the EU Commission and the European Central Bank that Greece will not be able to fulfill its promise to cut debt to 120 percent of annual economic growth in euro terms by 2020, Der Spiegel said.
Missing the target means Greece needs between 10 billion euros and 50 billion euros ($60.8 billion) in additional aid, a potential outcome that the IMF and several unidentified euro- area states are not prepared to accept, the magazine said, citing the review."

........the Greek crisis is going to get a whole lot worse by the end of the year. Total Greek social meltdown cannot be far off. Their only hope now must be a widening of the arena of European radical resistance to austerity -- recent mass resistance/strikes/demos in Spain at least offers hope for this.
 
Bit of a pincer movement going on at the moment

Just the other day the ECB said it would stop accepting Greek Govt Bonds as collateral in exchange for ECB lending to to Greek Banks

The ECB liquidity scheme (i.e. lending to european banks) is only meant to provide liquidity support to solvent banks and not to prop up non-solvent banks

And given that the bulk of IMF/EU 'bailout' goes to recapitalising Greek Banks (i.e. making insolvent banks solvent again) then it can't be too long before there is a complete breakdown of the Greek banking system and it's related social functions, along with the Euro/EU exit that Greece so badly needs. The difference now is that this seems to be being prompted by the IMF/ECB whereas up until recently it's the one thing they've been desperately trying to avoid
 
the thread is about Greece yes, our discussion over the last few posts has been about the growth of the far right in europe (including UK), so it's somewhat disingenuous to narrow it back down to Greece now given the far wider context of the previous few posts

what does the 19th century socialist left have to offer the 21st century working class though? clearly nothing at present - rethink & adapt is good advice indeed

As usual you have deliberately misrepresented the point of my post........I always find it illuminating that you IWCA guys are NEVER prepared to acknowledge the current fast regrowth of the radical socialist Left , in states at the forefront of the crisis (eg Greece, Spain, France, Portugal, yep, even Egypt ) as the World crisis deepens, whilst you are always so keen to grossly exaggerate the "unstoppable" growth of the Far Right. In the UK context you have been proved completely wrong on the growth path of the BNP. Totally wrong. And yet, as your post immediately above, and many other posts show, you are so totally "on the ball", in so much of your general analysis of the dynamics of the crisis.

As for the supposed irrelevance of "19th century socialism" to the 21st century crisis ... still completely relevant in its broad diagnosis of capitalism and the alternative of democratically accountable socialised production and working class control of society, I would suggest.

Mind you I have to admit that I find your overall politics completely opaque, so it's difficult to engage in meaningful debate with anti socialist negativity, rather than more clearly structured alternative proposals. Sometimes you use very solid "Marxist" economic analysis, sometimes you seem to suggest you have a "communist vision" for society, whereas overall you spend all your, collective, time on these threads denouncing the socialist Left and the relevance of socialism. I don't think I can be the only person simply at a loss to get the core points of your "alternative political take". In which case, maybe you should explain it more clearly ?
 
Any chance of seeing your more clearly structured alternative proposals then ayatollah?

Look at any of the proposals/analysis in general terms put out by the SP or SWP, or any other radical revolutionery socialist grouping to see the boringly conventional radical, non stalinist, socialist positions I hold. Dull I know, but there it is. So everyone knows where I stand in general terms without me having to lay it out in a manifesto. But your overall position ? Completely opaque, Now I know I may have few brain cells left, being very aged, but in this case I don't think its just stupidity preventing me from grasping where you collectively are coming from , its genuinely opaque.
 
Look at any of the proposals/analysis in general terms put out by the SP or SWP, or any other radical revolutionery socialist grouping to see the boringly conventional radical, non stalinist, socialist positions I hold. Dull I know, but there it is. So everyone knows where I stand in general terms without me having to lay it out in a manifesto. But your overall position ? Completely opaque, Now I know I may have few brain cells left, being very aged, but in this case I don't think its just stupidity preventing me from grasping where you collectively are coming from , its genuinely opaque.
I'm not asking you where you stand - i'm asking you for the clearly structured alternative proposals that you think you've offered on here and that others haven't. Now, can you point out where you have offered them on here or run though them please? A vague more resistance across europe doesn't really count as a clearly structured alternative proposal in my book - it's an aim. Clearly structured alternative proposals would outline the paths how this may happen, what opportunities for intervention exist and how these opportunities can be made a practical reality, who would be the ones taking the action, what areas (social, political, cultural, whatever) they would be operating in and so on.
 
In the UK context you have been proved completely wrong on the growth path of the BNP. Totally wrong.

BNP Vote 1992 General Election: 7,000

1995: Filling The Vacuum: 'we are not blind to the fact that the fight is political, and accept that the resurgence of support for the Far-Right is a symptom of a deeper malaise'....'It is vital that the working class on the estates, seriously alienated from Labour, are provided with an alternative to the BNP.'....'The election of a Labour government will be a massive shot in the arm for the Far-Right'

BNP Vote 2010 General Election: 560,000

An near 8,000% increase in support - so yep, totally wrong as you say

Mind you I have to admit that I find your politics completely opaque, so it's difficult to engage in meaningful debate with continual negativity

Whereas the sum total of your politics and contribution seems to be to just shout SOCIALIST on a small message board

rather than more clearly structured alternative proposals.

that you see the role of the left to sit down and come up with structural blueprints for alternative ways of running society smacks of the kind of top down, dusty headed ostrich like approach that has made the traditional social left the irrelevance that they are now. I don't see the left's role as coming up with these 'structured alternative proposals' a priori of the conditions in which they may possibly be implemented. If anything it's to create the space and recognition of the potential, in which these things may organically develop from, not to impose them as dictat in typical clever cloggist lefty manner

Sometimes you use "Marxist" economic analysis, sometimes you seem to suggest you have a "communist vision" for society

Why "Marxist" in inverted commas out of interest?

I don't think i've ever suggested I have a communist vision for society, I might have said I would like one or see such a society as desirable. But there are a lot of things in life that I'd like, which it is very unlikely that I will ever get. Communist society, unfortunately, is one of them.

whereas overall you spend all your, collective, time on these threads denouncing the socialist Left and the relevance of socialism.

Untrue - the majority of my posts on this board have nothing to do with denouncing the socialist left or the relevance of socialism. So to say I spend all my collective time on here doing what you suggest is frankly absurd

I don't think I can be the only person simply at a loss to get the core points of your "alternative political take". In which case, maybe you should explain it more clearly ?

See above, for my thoughts on the relevance of an 'alternative political take'
 
Look at any of the proposals/analysis in general terms put out by the SP or SWP, or any other radical revolutionery socialist grouping to see the boringly conventional radical, non stalinist, socialist positions I hold.

Did you support the SWP in advocating that the Greek people vote for their micro-sect colleagues Antarsya thus splitting the left vote and making Syriza less likely to win? I'm asking partly because I remember you were very adamant that a Syriza victory would have been 'premature' (you may not have used this word) and I haven't really understood why you think this since you seem to be pleased with the electoral successes of the left in other European countries.
 
Did you support the SWP in advocating that the Greek people vote for their micro-sect colleagues Antarsya thus splitting the left vote and making Syriza less likely to win? I'm asking partly because I remember you were very adamant that a Syriza victory would have been 'premature' (you may not have used this word) and I haven't really understood why you think this since you seem to be pleased with the electoral successes of the left in other European countries.
Not to answer for ayatollah, but the general thrust of that line has to be understood in the context of historical debates on the trot left about workers governments rather than the one of your tradition (if i've read your previous posts correctly) of labour/CP having a straightforward 'path' of securing power/influence politically through classic parliamentary methods (or applying pressure on whoever is the largest working class party). So taking power vs challenging wider social social relations in order to move beyond the set-up that the social democrats and Communist parties supported. Electoral victory not the key etc

That said though, i did read some very confused arguments from ayatollah's tradition that implicitly accepted the view of having the longer term aim of electing a left-wing govt through classical means, but that tactically this would be wrong for syriza to do now due to the likely worsening of the economic situation over the next 6 months - an odd situation in which to be dropping their traditional view after holding onto it for so many decades when it didn't mean a damn thing, to drop it as soon as it has become a potentially practical issue.

edit: and i think a lot of people still don't understand what the euro-communism of syriza means and often end up radicalising their real positions when discussing them or their demands etc
 
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