Goldsmiths University Diversity officer facing sack

[co-op]

it was clear - I just don't see how it is relevant as trans women are not men

It's relevant to many feminists because feminism appears as a response to the oppression of women by men, and much feminist theory identifies the locus of that oppression as being control over female reproduction and hence over womens' bodies in general. To dismiss this as having a "hang up about sexual organs" is trivialising a critical issue - it is imo equivalent to any non-trans person dismissing anyone who wishes to physically transition as "having a hang up about sexual organs".

some women are 'tomboys' as kids, some trans women have known from an early age that they're the wrong gender

Accepting trans people has nothing to do with 'compromise' it is just accepting trans people... trying to portray them as lesser women because they were socialised as a man early in life or they may or may not still have different sexual organ isn't accepting them.

as for ftm trans people - there are less of them and I'm not sure there are many shelters for men, I'm sure they have had issues with things like changing rooms etc..

I've not portrayed them as "lesser women" I've challenged the idea that mtf trans people have an automatic right to make demands of women. I've also questioned the ideology underlying some trans theory - it appears to me that it postulates a "correct" female way of living, based on current gender stereotyping, which is exactly what many women and ??all feminists? are attempting to overthrow. I do not find it surprising that many women find the experience of being lectured about what they should and shouldn't do by people who have been socialised as men, with all the accompanying problems of arrogance and expectations of female deference to them, problematic.

And of course there are many mtf trans people who completely get this. But it's interesting that ftm trans people simply don't seem to make equivalent demands on men - do you think this might be related to the fact that they have been socialised as women?

 

[joustmaster]

Ok should they be able to?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I've no interest in one. If a Trans man wants to come to a male space I use, then he is welcome.

 

[smokedout]

Seems to me that the layers of the onion start with the idea that it should be okay to reject your socially-imposed gender but ideally the next layer should be a rejection of the notion of socially-imposed gender at all. Saying that you accept socialised gender and just want to reassign your position in respect of it is a fundamentally reactionary position that may provide you personally with a short-term solution of sorts but surely just ingrains the actual long-term problem?

so what are non-trans people doing to socially reject gender? strikes me that people who are transgender, who are victims of rigidly socially imposed gender are now being blamed for that for not doing enough. why can't they just live their lives, like everyone else does, why is the duty on them to reject gender completely when almost no-one else does?

 

[Pickman's model]

None of which rejects the idea that a feeling of displacement against your socially-defined role is both genuine and enormously difficult.

all roles are socially defined. ALL ROLES ARE SOCIALLY DEFINED. do you need that repeating?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I've no interest in one. If a Trans man wants to come to a male space I use, then he is welcome.

You may not but what about other people who may; are you ok with people using their born biology, in certain circumstances as a crucial marker of identity?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[joustmaster]

You may not but what about other people who may; are you ok with people using their born biology, in certain circumstances as a crucial marker of identity?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Not really, no.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not really, no.

let's not get into a pissing contest

 

[smokedout]

And of course there are many mtf trans people who completely get this. But it's interesting that ftm trans people simply don't seem to make equivalent demands on men - do you think this might be related to the fact that they have been socialised as women?

sorry but thats a daft thing to say, the only purpose to it seems to be to suggest that if trans-women fight for inclusion then this just proves they are men

most of the spaces in question, and the ones which generate the most controversy, are spaces for people who have been victims of male, gender based violence. if you accept this is a problem with society then the two things are not comparable.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Not really, no.

This is what I have difficulty with. You seem to be telling people that you know better than they do what it is for them to be a man or a woman.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[ViolentPanda]

Cantsin how about when my daughter goes to the local school which is 30 percent white. You think it's "not the same" if black kids tell her they are gonna kill her because she is white?????

It's not about saying "kill a white person". It's not an issue about individuals. It's about someone making a declaration against a whole section of people.
And the context of the declaration is important, as has already been mentioned. Do your black neighbours or even the entirety of BME British people have the power to "kill all white people"? I doubt it. Does the state (which sees itself as white) have the power to "kill all black people"? It does.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not an issue about individuals. It's about someone making a declaration against a whole section of people.

presumably this someone is indeed an individual. perhaps an individual with issues.

 

[BigMoaner]

i get the power thing VP. but i stand by the statement that i would find it equally offensive if a black person on my street put up a sign saying "kill all whites" as to a white person putting up a sign saying "kill all blacks". the other poster was saying that a white person saying or expressing that is far far worse than a black person saying that. Not on my street, it wouldn't be. If it was a white PM saying it, or a UKIP leader, etc, then yes of course your argument stands. This idea that black people cannot be nastily racist is a damaging one to the anti-racist cause. I have been called a "white cunt" for not giving someone a fag. You think that holds less water than if i called some a black cunt for not giving me a fag?

 

[BigMoaner]

presumably this someone is indeed an individual. perhaps an individual with issues.

not as many as someone who posts 34 million posts a day, mostly one line, weird drivel

 

[ViolentPanda]

my point was that it doesn't matter about "history of imperialism" (like old numnuts was rattling on about) when someone is being racist toward you, especially if what they are saying is "kill all the whites"!!

History very much does matter, because it shows where the power lies.

 

[Dowie]

It's relevant to many feminists because feminism appears as a response to the oppression of women by men, and much feminist theory identifies the locus of that oppression as being control over female reproduction and hence over womens' bodies in general. To dismiss this as having a "hang up about sexual organs" is trivialising a critical issue - it is imo equivalent to any non-trans person dismissing anyone who wishes to physically transition as "having a hang up about sexual organs".e and expectations of female deference to them, problematic.

you're talking about men again! How is that relevant to trans women, where is the oppression of women by trans women?

 

[Pickman's model]

not as many as someone who posts 34 million posts a day, mostly one line, weird drivel

you do yourself no favours by describing your posts as weird drivel.

 

[Dowie]

I've not portrayed them as "lesser women" I've challenged the idea that mtf trans people have an automatic right to make demands of women.

But trans women are women? Demanding equality is a reasonable demand. Would you challenge the automatic right of gay men to make demands of straight men, suppose some straight men had hang ups about gay men being in 'their' space?

And of course there are many mtf trans people who completely get this. But it's interesting that ftm trans people simply don't seem to make equivalent demands on men - do you think this might be related to the fact that they have been socialised as women?

depends what you mean by the equivalent demands - are there male shelters? There may well be some issues with changing rooms - but with men being the dominant gender and things being set up for women who are suffering from various issues then trans women who are being oppressed may well want to make use of the facilities set up for women in general. Trans men on the other hand - I'm not sure they'd want to seek refuge amongst men who are the dominant gender and often the oppressors. It isn't really an equivalent scenario.

 

[TopCat]

Other trans people have told me that the use of toilets and exclusion (and/or fear of exclusion) is a particular issue, and it's reflected in my own experiences of people transitioning at work - it seems to bring out the worst in people.

I had the task of supporting a trans women at work and the attitudes of cod women and the loos were hard to overcome. I really tried to get them to be reasonable but in the end threatened to make all the loos accessible to all. They blanched at sharing the loos with hairy arsed geezers and shared the loo with the trans woman with no further issues.

 

[co-op]

so what are non-trans people doing to socially reject gender? strikes me that people who are transgender, who are victims of rigidly socially imposed gender are now being blamed for that for not doing enough. why can't they just live their lives, like everyone else does, why is the duty on them to reject gender completely when almost no-one else does?

No one's asked them to "reject gender completely when no one else does" - what is it with all the strawmen? They are being thrown out left right and centre by the trans lobby on this thread.

The idea that mtf trans people have a right to demand of other people (born women) that their (i.e. mtftps') particular conception of a "female gender" is the one that be the norm is just rubbish imo - particularly so when feminists have spent decades challenging this stuff. No is demanding anything of trans people accept that they permit this debate without the usual crap about "being transphobic" etc, the Godwins of the issue, already deployed by one poster one here who - when challenged by me on this - hasn't yet come back with an example of what they consider to be a transphobic post.

 

[kabbes]

so what are non-trans people doing to socially reject gender?

Seriously? Have you not seen all those books on feminism, for example? Have you not seen how far we've come since the 1950s? But blimey, there's still a long way to go.

strikes me that people who are transgender, who are victims of rigidly socially imposed gender are now being blamed for that for not doing enough. why can't they just live their lives, like everyone else does, why is the duty on them to reject gender completely when almost no-one else does?

Yes, I sympathise. It's a tough position to be in. I'm not convinced that endorsing the prevailing view of gender by reassigning your position with respect to it is going to do anything in the long run but ingrain it further, though, even though I can understand somebody taking that path.

 

[TopCat]

Me too, but I can totally understand why some might choose to go for exclusionary groups, especially as
is what intersectionality (in theory) attempts to achieve. And you've already rejected intersectionality...

You can successfully ensure everyone gets the opportunity to contribute without resorting to intersectionalism as is practiced by divisive whiney fuckwits.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seriously? Have you not seen all those books on feminism, for example? Have you not seen how far we've come since the 1950s? But blimey, there's still a long way to go.

how's that rejecting gender?

 

[co-op]

But trans women are women?

Born as men, socialised as men, and on various points of a transition spectrum - they are obviously different or we wouldn't be having this debate. When ever you come back on this you answer the issue of the difference by baldly stating "there is no difference". That's not an answer.

 

[Blagsta]

co-op these societal notions of gender do change over time and are not statick as can be seen by the fact pink not always considered a feminine colour nor indeed are the notions universal

The fact that gender roles are societally defined seems to be missed a lot in this argument. I have immense problems with a man saying "I'm a woman just cos I say I am". It's highly individualist and ignores the fact that identity is also about relationships with other people and institutions. Having said that though, I also have problems with the way society defines gender roles; they are limiting and often destructive. Being Marxist here, I would say that gender roles get defined by society and the needs of capital, the needs of capital have changed and gender roles are changing (more accurately being re-negotiated) . There's a dialectic between the individual and the social which is being missed in this thread I think.

 

[Athos]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[cesare]

Born as men, socialised as men, and on various points of a transition spectrum - they are obviously different or we wouldn't be having this debate. When ever you come back on this you answer the issue of the difference by baldly stating "there is no difference". That's not an answer.

Not all trans* people are born as men or women. There are other biological combinations.

 

[DotCommunist]

Can't we all just get along?

no.

 

[BigMoaner]

Can't we all just get along?

not as far as i am aware.

 

[TopCat]

Straw

Maybe you're right, women have nothing in common and the term "woman" is in fact completely meaningless.

man

 

[Dowie]

Born as men, socialised as men, and on various points of a transition spectrum - they are obviously different or we wouldn't be having this debate. When ever you come back on this you answer the issue of the difference by baldly stating "there is no difference". That's not an answer.

No I haven't - please quote my posts using the quote facility rather than making things up... I've not said there is no difference between trans women and cis women.*

I've pointed out several times that trans women are not men - they are women*! You keep trying to justify your position by referring to men and oppression carried out by men. Is there actual evidence of trans women oppressing women? If not then is it not a massive assumption to assume that because men have oppressed women and some/lots of trans women were born in male bodies (others have some medical issue or are born with some ambiguity) then that is relevant to trans women. If anything it is cis women who hold a position of power and privilege over trans women.

(*for the sake of clarity - both cis and trans women are women - stating that trans women are women too(not men) doesn't imply that there is no difference between them and cis women which you seem to be claiming I have said)