Gaza under attack yet again.

[ViolentPanda]

The psychological consequences? Is that a victory for Palestine or does it help Israel maintain a sense of fear within its population?

To an extent it does both, but for the latter function, it has become less and less successful, the more often it has been used, hence the state of Israel going to town about "the new missiles" capable of reaching Tel Aviv - standard ratchet-up propaganda, that will only be effective for as long as HAMAS can continue to throw missiles at the capital.

 

[hipipol]

Why is America so pro Israel?
Why are Americans so anti Palestinian?
Why do Europeans seem to have different sympathies?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biltmore_Conference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–United_States_relations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States

and on an on
Without US support Israel would not have had much chance of survival in the early days
Doubt they could have seen what it would turn into

 

[ViolentPanda]

I do boycott - probably out of a sense of helplessness and 'wanting to do something' - but I am a bit conflicted about it tbh, as I don't necessarily boycott Chinese products so I feel I am a hypocrite

I'm not sure that comparing China and the state of Israel, in terms of oppression of population, is helpful. While there are similarities with regard to oppression of minorities, the motivations are different IMO.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The PA are a bunch of puppet quisling cunts. They distribute the money that has been 'donated' (with conditions of course- such as encouraging wahabism, training the quisling police force etc) among themselves. Moreover, they are regarded as a bunch of mafia scum by the Palestinians. They would sell their own mothers for a pat on the back from Obama and a handful of dollars.

Now now, don't upset phil by troubling his self-righteous exposé with pesky facts!

 

[ViolentPanda]

And now this shit -

Didn't they try the same bullshit in 2012?

 

[frogwoman]

Hamas rockets couldn't have hit the school ffs.

 

[Awesome Wells]

'outlier'?

Anyone that says that is a cunt who needs death!

 

[scalyboy]

Hamas rockets couldn't have hit the school ffs.

The f---ing rubbish they come out with, it would be laughable if it wasn't so horrific. Reminds me of Karadzic suggesting that Bosniaks had mortared their own Sarajevo market queue for PR

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its easy to come up with at least three reasons why the BBC coverage of atrocities against Palestinians took a turn for the worse in the last decade (not saying it was totally fair and balanced before then). The large slap the BBC received in the aftermark of the Iraq war, when action was taken to kick some segments of the establishment that wandered too far off message in the buildup to that war. Hamas coming to power and the way the west decided to approach that in propaganda and practical terms. And some kind of narrowing of the mainstream bounds of 'acceptable' criticism towards Israel that may have taken place. This latter point I would like to understand better, since I am not really clear on how much things have narrowed on this front compared to 20 years ago (my memory could be playing tricks) or the exact reasons why this has happened.

Your memory isn't playing tricks. Until GIlligan, and the "in" it gave the political classes to fillet BBC news production, political debate on the beeb, while never "fair and balanced", did at least attempt to give an accounting of both sides, even if their sympathies obviously lay with the oppressor, rather than the oppressed. This doesn't just hold true with regard to coverage of what the Sstate of Israel does, but across political coverage. Auntie is much more cravenly pro-establishment post-Gilligan. That ringpiece should have his arse kicked daily.

 

[TomUS]

Why is America so pro Israel?
Why are Americans so anti Palestinian?
Why do Europeans seem to have different sympathies?

The Israel lobby in the US is extremely powerful & it is a master of propaganda. And do Europeans really have different sympathies? If the EU were a country it would be Israel's largest trading partner. Europe has the power to apply much pressure to Israel but, like America, chooses not to.

 

[frogwoman]

The f---ing rubbish they come out with, it would be laughable if it wasn't so horrific. Reminds me of Karadzic suggesting that Bosniaks had mortared their own Sarajevo market queue for PR

Hopefully Netanyahu will be joining Karadzic quite soon.

 

[Awesome Wells]

This is all so very depressing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If, as is suggested, Israel was dismantled in a referendum, what would happen to all the Jews now living there?

A goodly proportion of the settlers in the Occupied Territories have dual nationality. Most of them would have the option to fuck off back to the US or Europe. Isn't it strange that these people, who purport to love the notion of Israel so much, retain the means to "escape", whenever the going gets hard?

Off the top of my head I don't think historically there's been a great track record for Jews living in Arab Middle East states (e.g. under Saddam's Iraq), or Iran - but I'm not an expert by any means, can someone prove me wrong with some historical facts?

Iran's Jews have lived as unpersecuted lives as any other ethno-religious group under both the Shah and the revolution.
Iraq's Jews we're subjected to dirty tricks campaigns by MOSSAD from the '50s onward in order to encourage them to emigrate to Israel.

The fact is that most old Jewish communities co-existed well in their respective countries until the state of Israel made it a point of pride to "gather in" the Middle Eastern and North African Jews, and used dirty tricks assaults and murders purportedly committed by Arab anti-Semites) to stir up fear in those populations.

 

[teqniq]

JihadiJew: Humanize! Names, ages and faces of those killed in Gaza. Not to incite anger but to incite compassion. http://t.co/GpUU9zS0wm

http://humanizepalestine.com/

 

[Idris2002]

A goodly proportion of the settlers in the Occupied Territories have dual nationality. Most of them would have the option to fuck off back to the US or Europe. Isn't it strange that these people, who purport to love the notion of Israel so much, retain the means to "escape", whenever the going gets hard?



Iran's Jews have lived as unpersecuted lives as any other ethno-religious group under both the Shah and the revolution.
Iraq's Jews we're subjected to dirty tricks campaigns by MOSSAD from the '50s onward in order to encourage them to emigrate to Israel.

The fact is that most old Jewish communities co-existed well in their respective countries until the state of Israel made it a point of pride to "gather in" the Middle Eastern and North African Jews, and used dirty tricks assaults and murders purportedly committed by Arab anti-Semites) to stir up fear in those populations.

Avi Shlaim talks about the Lavon affair in Egypt in the 50s (in his The Iron Wall), but wasn't there also a pogrom in Baghdad in 1941, well before Israel was founded?

 

[nino_savatte]

A goodly proportion of the settlers in the Occupied Territories have dual nationality. Most of them would have the option to fuck off back to the US or Europe. Isn't it strange that these people, who purport to love the notion of Israel so much, retain the means to "escape", whenever the going gets hard?



Iran's Jews have lived as unpersecuted lives as any other ethno-religious group under both the Shah and the revolution.
Iraq's Jews we're subjected to dirty tricks campaigns by MOSSAD from the '50s onward in order to encourage them to emigrate to Israel.

The fact is that most old Jewish communities co-existed well in their respective countries until the state of Israel made it a point of pride to "gather in" the Middle Eastern and North African Jews, and used dirty tricks assaults and murders purportedly committed by Arab anti-Semites) to stir up fear in those populations.

You've reminded me of Naeim Giladi's (RIP) story.
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html

 

[nino_savatte]

Avi Shlaim talks about the Lavon affair in Egypt in the 50s (in his The Iron Wall), but wasn't there also a pogrom in Baghdad in 1941, well before Israel was founded?

You mean the Farhud?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

 

[butchersapron]

Iran's Jews have lived as unpersecuted lives as any other ethno-religious group under both the Shah and the revolution.
Iraq's Jews we're subjected to dirty tricks campaigns by MOSSAD from the '50s onward in order to encourage them to emigrate to Israel.

Including some fake anti Semitic bombings if I remember right.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I always also wonder about collective trauma, in that (I think I'm right) many people who live in Israel had family who died in Nazi Germany. But that's not something I know much about, and it's obviously not an excuse. But if there (hopefully) is a peace agreement, after the peace there will also probably be some reflection and maybe that is something that people will talk about.

Most Israelis are at least 2 generations away from the Shoah, and proportionately, there are probably more Jews in the European diaspora who lost family to the Nazis, than who made aliyah. This isn't about a deep-rooted psychological trauma stemming from Hitler's murderousness, it was a plain and simple decision, by Palestinian Jews and European and US Zionists during the Mandate, that the state of Israel should be a tabula rasa - a blank slate where history could be re-written - and even though failed (by dint of the mandated removal of Palestinian Arabs from their land not being successful), the state of Israel has worked hard to "unmake" the historic presence and entitlement of Palestinian Arabs to their lands. There was, for example, a wholesale re-writing of the cartography of the territory, with Hebraicised names given to places that had borne Arab names for 10 centuries or more.

It isn't about trauma,, it's about a cynical "smash and grab" that is tolerated and even encouraged by the US because it suits their geo-strategic interests.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Including some fake anti Semitic bombings if I remember right.

Yep.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't like how this conflict is making me veer towards a serious dislike of Israelis. I know that sounds bad, I know how easily for some that can tip over into a dislike of Jews and I know how much the Israeli establishment wants me to tip over into disliking Jews. I also know a great many in Israel are against the occupation on the whole, including Israelis I personally know. But fuck it just makes me angry. Not only the actual facts of it but its the complete and utter divorce from reality by Israel's apologists. It's not only that it's the smugness that goes along with it and the completely flimsy and flat out false reasons to justify it.

'Well, 200,000 have died in Syria and I didn't hear you complaining' - Not the same thing. That's a civil war and I think it's horrendous. What's the difference? This has been going on for over 40 years, Israel's acting illegally on all counts, there's a peace deal on the table for 30 years that Israel reject in favour of expansion, they're violently oppressing the people they're occupying and the state I live in backs them so it's indirectly being done in my name and so on

'Well, Palestinians only existed since last century so they're not entitled to the land' - And? Even if that was true the people there were either living there or are descendants of people living there when Israel booted them out.

I know I've brought this up a bit before, although the first few sentences are a new feeling for me, but just GAAAH! It seems having the actual facts of the situation aren't enough. Even when you point it out bold as brass to people they still can't or won't see it! The combination of reading too many apologists comments and listening to that cunt on channel 4 news earlier today has tipped me over the edge tonight

I dislike many citizens of the state of Israel on an individual basis, but I don't hate them as a people. What I do hate is the actions of the state of Israel, and what those actions turn their citizens into - a people complicit with horror.

 

[teqniq]

A legal and moral case for Hamas rocket fire

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Didn't they try the same bullshit in 2012?

They're bullshit central, so more than likely.

 

[Idris2002]

You mean the Farhud?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

That's the one, yes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If Israel wanted to march in and occupy everything they could. The rockets wouldn't stop that.

I'm not sure you understand how military occupation works.
Yes, the state of Israel could do exactly that, no-one is saying they couldn't.
Being reasonably stategically-minded and tactically-inclined, though, they won't. A full-scale permanent occupation of Gaza would require using a significant part of their standing army and reserves to occupy and police Gaza - this would put massive pressure on the economy, as well as on their human military resources and on military materiel, pressure that can't be alleviated with some extra cash from the US, as they found out previously.
Israel will never again opt for full occupation. Instead they will continue to depend on locking people into a vast open prison and convincing some Palestinians to work as kapos for them, and occasionally invading in strength to destroy infrastructure and lives, then withdrawing.

 

[weepiper]

Malaysian cyclist makes Gaza protest at the Commonwealth games

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, I admire your hopes and aspirations but it scares me quite a lot that you can Palestine cannot lose while having literally no idea of how a one or two state solution can be realised.

As either a one or two state solution will never be realised through negotiation (we've had 30 years of Palestinian concessions, accompanied by many broken promises from the state of Israel, plus a few instrumental tactical withdrawals), any solution will require to be imposed from the outside, which the UN will never be able to do, not least because of the US veto.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hell, I'll just say it: the rockets serve no purpose except to legitimise the position of Hamas as leaders of the resistance.

Ah, that must be why Islamic Jihad are also involved - so that they can legitimate HAMAS!

Even given the scarcity of resources at their disposal, if they wanted to actively resist they could.

They do.

 

[quiquaquo]

#c4news At scene of Qalandia riot, spent cases of live rounds used by Israelis, who shot around 150 Palestinians pic.twitter.com/mJJv7PBAGP
— Jonathan Miller (@millerC4) July 25, 2014
#c4news Dir of Ramallah hosp says they were "overwhelmed" last night. Total 234 admitted here. Most gunshot. 1 died, shot x3; 7 v critical

— Jonathan Miller (@millerC4) July 25, 2014​

 

[ViolentPanda]

That stupid map also fails to point out that most of the land featured is virtually uninhabitable desert.

And that those parts of the map where "the desert has been made to bloom", as the propaganda has it, have been greened through massive over-use by the state of Israel of finite resources, most usually water from aquifers, the over-use affecting the Palestinian Arabs asymmetrically-badly.